How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew ?

[dio9]

Tradition clearly states Jesus was betrayed.
How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew Judas was going to betray him? Betrayal is a surprise unexpected . Betrayal means taken by surprise. Have you ever been betrayed?

I believe Jesus was betrayed but as a biblical buff question the Gospel account where Jesus dismisses Judas to go do what he has to do.

John 13:26
Jesus replied, “He’s the one I give the piece of bread to after I have dipped it.� When He had dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son.

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

As I said I believe he was betrayed but am afraid the account in John's Gospel is drama.

Show me I am thinking wrong.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 69 by shnarkle]

was it God's will or Mankind's will ?
I agree God is present in everything that exists the catholic catechism posits God is omnipresent and omniscient. Mankind by the same catechism is separated somehow fallen out of God's existence liable to do something unthinkable outside of God's omniscience. Thus it was alienated Man persuaded by Satan if you will who betrayed God himself in Jesus Christ. Man betrayed God, not God betraying himself.

Maybe Jesus suspected Judas and the abandonment of the apostles and disciples and the population of Jerusalem swayed against him by his enemies and I suppose he knew he had dangerous enemies too. But til the end he couldn't have known for sure he was going to be betrayed.

As an after thought before a sympathetic Pilate , if however many supporters Jesus brought with him into Jerusalem had shouted out for Jesus in the courtyard Pilate may have let who he saw as an innocent just Jesus go free. Mankind betrayed God in Christ.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 69 by shnarkle]

was it God's will or Mankind's will ?

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; especially when one sees Christ's will being subordinated to God's.

I agree God is present in everything that exists

I wasn't suggesting that God is present in everything that exists. I was pointing out two things: 1. God can only exist in the word; apart from the word God doesn't exist.; and 2. Christ being the means of everything that exists, is in, with, and through everything that exists.

the catholic catechism posits God is omnipresent and omniscient.

And this can only be "by whom all things exist" as Paul points out in 1 Cor. 8:6

Mankind by the same catechism is separated somehow fallen out of God's existence liable to do something unthinkable outside of God's omniscience.

Mankind, like Adam and Eve; is under the impression that hiding from God is possible. It is this delusion that creates a perception of separation. We exist so we are clearly not outside of, or fallen from existence. As Jesus points out, "Apart from me, you can do nothing". You can't do anything when you cease to exist.

What is outside of God's omniscience? Everything. The known world must be outside of God's omniscience. God is all knowing, therefore there can be no thing that can be known within God's omniscience. This isn't to say that God isn't omniscient. It simply points out that God cannot be known, nor can anything that is known by an omniscient God be found within an omniscient God.

How one does what is unthinkable is another issue that requires more clarification. Whether one is thinking or not, whatever is done is known by an omniscient God; it just can't be known within an omniscient God. What is known cannot participate in all knowing. Omniscience isn't characteristic of things nor can it be referred to as a "what". Omniscience isn't part of the known world.

Thus it was alienated Man persuaded by Satan if you will who betrayed God himself in Jesus Christ. Man betrayed God, not God betraying himself.

God cannot betray himself. God doesn't have a self. God isn't a self. Jesus isn't God, but this doesn't mean that he cannot be privy to the deceptions of others even to the point of telling them to get on with their plans of betrayal.

Maybe Jesus suspected Judas and the abandonment of the apostles and disciples and the population of Jerusalem swayed against him by his enemies

There's no maybe about it in the pages of the gospel narratives. He plainly knew he was going to be betrayed. He knew who was going to betray him, and even pointed out to one of his disciples who would betray him. He told Judas to go and carry out his plan. He also pointed out that all of his disciples would deny him and scatter. The gospel writeres plainly point out that the gospel would be rejected.

But til the end he couldn't have known for sure he was going to be betrayed.

The texts plainly state that he knew what was in the hearts of men. He plainly said to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem to be betrayed, and suffer death. He doesn't know what the outcome will be in the beginning. Christ isn't omniscient, but he must know that rejection will leave him with no option other than death. There are only two options; acceptance of the gospel or rejection of the gospel. In either case, an omniscient and omnipresent God's will is carried out.

As an after thought before a sympathetic Pilate ,

Pilate isn't sympathetic. Pilate doesn't understand why this crowd is in such a fervor to crucify one of their own who hasn't done anything wrong. However, he does see that it's becoming a problem for him to keep peace so he relents out of a sense of self preservation. If he loses control of the situation, it won't look good on his resume.

if however many supporters Jesus brought with him into Jerusalem had shouted out for Jesus in the courtyard Pilate may have let who he saw as an innocent just Jesus go free.

Sure, that would have calmed the crowd. That's the only thing he was interested in.

Mankind betrayed God in Christ.

Yep, it is also a betrayal of Christ in each other. The crowd doesn't recognize Christ. They're still hiding from God. Although there are hints that the scribes and Pharisees did have their suspicions, but their own personal interests took priority over receiving their own messiah.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 72 by shnarkle]
But yes the two are mutually exclusive before without Christ .
The whole premise of christian salvation is that Mankind represented by Adam and Eve were cast out of God's garden even cursed to live by the sweat of their brow and suffer in childbirth. Mankind is fallen out of God's world spiritually dead. Jesus the Christ gave the possibility of new life, the life of God , lost by Adam in the beginning, back to Mankind . Mankind and God are not on the same page. This is where Christ comes in as the savior. If Man were not alienated we would not need a savior.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 72 by shnarkle]
But yes the two are mutually exclusive before without Christ .
The whole premise of christian salvation is that Mankind represented by Adam and Eve were cast out of God's garden even cursed to live by the sweat of their brow and suffer in childbirth.

Even cursed to work and suffer childbirth? I don't think you fully grasp the gravity of being separated from the presence of God. Mankind being forced to work and suffer in childbirth pales in comparison.

Mankind is fallen out of God's world spiritually dead. Jesus the Christ gave the possibility of new life, the life of God , lost by Adam in the beginning, back to Mankind .

Here again, I don't think you've fully grasped what Christ is actually offering. He isn't offering a possiblity. He's offering the kingdom, and people are forcefully entering into it while others sit back and pretend that it is only a possibility. Jesus had some choice words for those who not only refused to enter, but prevented others from entering as well.

Mankind and God are not on the same page.

I never said all mankind are on the same page. I pointed out that they aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

This is where Christ comes in as the savior. If Man were not alienated we would not need a savior.

And yet this doesn't even begin to address the problem in those who are unable to recieve the gospel message, does it? Obviously those who receive it are on the same page. In fact, they are foreordained to receive it.

[dio9]

[Replying to shnarkle]

"What is outside of God's omniscience? Everything. The known world must be outside of God's omniscience. God is all knowing, therefore there can be no thing that can be known within God's omniscience. This isn't to say that God isn't omniscient. It simply points out that God cannot be known, nor can anything that is known by an omniscient God be found within an omniscient God."

I agree with your point only so far , God is happening , the only way we can see our our eyeball is by its image in a mirror. God sees himself/herself the creation as a reflection of what is. God knows himself in the universe which is his image .

[shnarkle]

God is happening ,

Not according to the writers of the New Testament, as I've already shown.

the only way we can see our our eyeball is by its image in a mirror.

And yet, that image is not our eyeball. It's an image.

God sees himself/herself the creation as a reflection of what is.

God is not a "what". Again, the problem with this is that Christ states he only does what he sees the father doing and says what is given to him from the father. Christ says one must "deny yourself". Christ denies himself. Christ is doing what he sees the father doing. To deny yourself is to point out that there is no self. Ultimately the father isn't doing anything. According to Paul, God is the origin of what exists, and John's introduction points out that God is the origin of existence as well.

God knows himself in the universe which is his image .

Again, I would suggest rereading what the authors of the New Testament scriptures have stated. The word is the image, and the word is not a "what". The word is a "who". e.g. "by WHOM everything exists".

[dio9]

[Replying to dio9]

So as the God of the living , even God did not know what was going to happen until it happened. God did not betray Jesus because God himself was betrayed. Even though evil was gathering all around Jesus God doesn't see it because God is by definition completely good , there is no evil at all in God. Evil doesn't exist in God's world.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to dio9]

So as the God of the living , even God did not know what was going to happen until it happened.

God is the origin and conclusion of existence; whatever can be known is known through Christ "the word". Nothing happens in eternity, yet all is foreknown (e.g. he sees the end from the beginning).

God did not betray Jesus because God himself was betrayed.

No, this is a non sequitur. God cannot be betrayed. Ultimately God doesn't exist except in, with, and through Christ; neither have any sense of self.

Even though evil was gathering all around Jesus God doesn't see it because God is by definition completely good , there is no evil at all in God. Evil doesn't exist in God's world.

Yep, and not just God, but the angelic host of heaven is unaware of evil as well. We can see this in the book of Isaiah, and his account of the depravity he saw all around him in Jerusalem. His beatific vision revealed that the Seraphim were unable to see anything other than the glory of God filling all of creation.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 78 by shnarkle]

That's my point God sees only good no evil. God never ate from the tree of good and evil, God only eats the fruit from the tree of life. Only Adam against God's command ate from the tree of both good and evil. Unfortunately Man knows evil , God doesn't.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 78 by shnarkle]

That's my point God sees only good no evil. God never ate from the tree of good and evil, God only eats the fruit from the tree of life. Only Adam against God's command ate from the tree of both good and evil. Unfortunately Man knows evil , God doesn't.

I would agree that Adonai does not need to eat from the tree of the knowledge of tov(good) and ra'(evil). However, saying the Adonai does not see ra' is inconsistent with the passage because, after cursing the ground for Adam's sake and noting who Havah's life was changed, He says, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good(tov) and evil (ra')." So, it appears that Adonai knows ra'(evil).