Who is responsible?

[Peds nurse]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

[ttruscott]

In relation to Love, if it cannot be demanded then all that is demanded cannot be Love.

I see it being commanded which implies that what is commanded is true and is available. The holy angels do not need to be commanded, only earthly sinners. Therefore when we are brought to holiness the command will be fulfilled by the changes in us, not by the law.

That sinners cannot fulfill the law puts the failure on them, not the law, whether it is to love or to obey.

[ttruscott]

NOW I find post 62:

///

which also addressed your concerns...

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 62 by ttruscott]

So the argument seems to be that you have to be allowed to sin so you can repent.

Seems like it to you eh? Well that misses the mark because sin is!

Sin was allowed by our free will so we could choose a true marriage with HIM by our free will. No one had to sin...everyone could have enter the heavenly state at the same time! Living with the suffering sin causes is necessary to bring HIS sinful elect to repentance.

Psychologists have long known that if you want to deter unwanted behavior, you provide negative reinforcement immediately when that behavior is manifest. Why doesn't your God know that?

Now you are arguing FOR the negative reinforcement from GOD found in our suffering??? Weird... Obviously HE knows about that since life in this world is designed around this principle.

Can you even begin to understand why reasonable people find Christianity a disgusting and repugnant set of doctrines?

I find reason has little to do with the more emotive of an anti-Christian's sentiments.

[ttruscott]

Peds nurse agrees and supports this 'non-mainstream Christian doctrine' by her silence or unwillingness to rebuke her Christian brother for his blasphemy,

Holding a heretical or heterodox position on doctrine is NOT blasphemy which is a denigration of GOD's attributes or methodology, bringing HIM (HIS good Name), into disrepute.

While I tend to call orthodoxy out on some blasphemy they indulge in, I am not called out for that because all of my theology holds GOD to the highest definition for HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS justice etc.

Nowhere in the Bible is there any hint that our pre-conception existence goes against any interpretation of doctrine. Some interpretations conflict with the PCE interpretation but there is nothing in the Bible that says PCE is flatly contradicted by any verse.

I believe that I stand on pretty firm ground...

[ttruscott]

Perhaps they too think the same as this member does re 'humans are basically all demons, with some of them been given the chance to stop buying into the idea that everyone 'fallen' will eventually regain their senses and believe in this being claiming to be 'The one true GOD creator' without supplying any evidence to back the claim, but just expecting everyone to accept the claim without evidence.

Blatant misrepresentation. I do not believe all humans are demons at all. Demons are those who cannot be redeemed and sanctified and I believe many sinful folk are indeed redeemed and sanctified.

Also I have OFTEN posted the list of the evidence I believe supports my belief in YHWH and have never held that belief must be accepted without evidence.

As always the conflation of evidence and proof continues to reduce responsibility for the rejection of the gospel.

[ttruscott]

It is not that I don't see the connection but that you don't see the context: What psychology tells us is that to be an effective deterrent punishment must be immediate and certain.

Please prove the psychologists understand the answer to evil better than GOD. Can you even prove one case where an immediate and certain punishment stopped the offensive behaviour? Or are you referring to the immediate and and certain warning of a punishment?

I have written right here, two or three times, it is not HIS intent to deter evil acts until the punishment value, ie the intent to change behaviour, has its effect, Heb 12:5-11.

[ttruscott]

Why can't he get it right immediately the first time, every time?!

What is IT, any way?? When was the first time for IT? When was the second??

[ttruscott]

The member's idea of GOD is that GOD only has a small amount of patience and that most will fail to reintegrate and will be consigned to an eternity of fiery torment for believing the "blasphemy" that all who have fallen will eventual reintegrate with the GOD-head, with First Source Consciousness.

Again with the misrepresentation...

I believe that GOD has a perfect and never ending patience and have often denied that anyone could be lost who was able to be saved because HE would never condemn someone for being slow, even if a billion years.

Any and everyone who can be saved , will be saved.
Only those who cannot be saved are condemned.

Since I had never heard of your FS before a week or so ago, I doubt if that was the blasphemy that condemned them so much as their rejection of YHWH as a false god telling lies about the true nature of reality and making false promises.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 100 by ttruscott]

As for stopping the suffering, why would HE do that ? when it is the only way to get through to the sinful elect that they indeed are guilty and must repent and become holy.

Are you saying that repentance is a means of becoming holy, or does holiness require repentance?

HIS love for them does not get them to repent. The abstract knowledge that HE claims they are sinners does not get them to repent. ONLY having their eyes opened to their evil by them seeing the suffering they cause their loved ones gets people to repent.

I can't help but see some validity in what you're saying here. When we see something that we've done causes harm to others, it can be unbearable if there is no remedy, and that remedy seems to be the sacrifice of the sinner; the carnal minded can't do that while those who become tormented by their sin, will do whatever is necessary to make restitution.

The abstract knowledge that HE claims the tares are eternally sinful does not get the sinful elect to repudiate their friendly relations with them.

I don't know about this because it sounds like something different than what Paul says in Romans 9

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

ONLY having their eyes opened to their evil by them seeing the suffering the tares cause everyone gets the sinful elect to repudiate them, trusting in GOD that HIS method of banishment to the outer darkness is an absolute necessity.

This sounds closer to what Paul says, but still not quite exactly the same.

Without allowing people to feel the suffering of evil, it would last forever.

Here again, I'm not entirely sure this makes complete sense. I see what you're saying with regards to the necessity for pain, and perhaps even suffering, but there are those who no amount of suffering or pain will have any effect, which is what you've already pointed out are the tares. I guess I just don't see any point in letting them engage in suffering forever. The perpetually evil need to be put out of their misery even if they are completely unaware of how miserable they really are. It is just and merciful for God to put the miserable out of their misery.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

The one and only purpose for Creation, is to provide us with the free will to make moral choices. The choices are ours, not God's, because God shared that free will with us, to exercise in this universe, in this life. This is a test.

So why are some punished for the moral choices they choose? Some redefinition is needed here maybe...