How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew ?

[dio9]

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

I don't see the problem. If I say, "I know my wife will cheat on me tonight", and she does, is it not infidelity because I predicted what she would do?

Pretty simple. So why they numerous responses????

From my position, it becomes not infidelity if it turns out you tell her to do it (or get on with it) AND that a plan of yours, cooked up by you and your father, depends on her infidelity.
Earlier in this thread, I posited...what if Judas had stayed in the house after being identified? What if he had given up his money, sat down and asked his fellow disciples to stay with him and make sure he doesn't identify their master to the authorities?
No-one has replied to that.

[shnarkle]

Judas was chosen by the Christ to perform this task, which he did as requested.

• So why did Jesus say that whoever betrayed him would be damned?
  
  And why did Judas committ suicide claiming he betrayed innocent blood?

JW

He didn't actually say that. He just said that it would have been better had he not been born. He claimed that he betrayed innocent blood because he realized that he had placed his own plans for the kingdom above God's plan. It isn't really clear that Judas committed suicide. He looks like he might have had some help. If you look at the accounts, it was no ordinary suicide. I think the texts even indicate that the whole city knew about it, and given that there really isn't anything all that noteworthy about some poor Jew committing suicide, his was quite spectacular.

[shnarkle]

it was no ordinary suicide.

Isn't a suicide that isn't an "ordinary" suicide still a suicide?

Sure, but given that suicide was common, it wouldn't have been known throughout Jerusalem unless it occured along with extraordinary circumstances, e.g. being disemboweled.

What did Judas do that was "above God's plan"?

He turned it into a plan to make money. This was part of his motivation; he was motivated by Mammon. He was motivated to bring in a kingdom of his own imagination. He had his own plans. They were his plans; not God's plans. They weren't in allignment with God or Jesus. He placed his plans above God's plan.

It's what we all do. We don't follow Jesus' teaching. We follow our own ideas of Jesus' teaching. We've all scattered just like Jesus' disciples because we want to do it our way rather than the way God planned it out. But God's will cannot be thwarted, so we only end up betraying ourselves. "Every violation of the truth is a sort of suicide in the liar" -Emerson

[JehovahsWitness]

it was no ordinary suicide.

Isn't a suicide that isn't an "ordinary" suicide still a suicide?

Sure

Well then it is accurate to say Judas committed suicide (I take "sure" to mean "yes")

I believe Judas committed suicide.

he realized that he had placed his own plans for the kingdom above God's plan.

What did Judas do that was "above God's plan"?

JW

[FWI]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

So why did Jesus say that whoever betrayed him would be damned?

It seems unusual that you didn't supply the bible verse that includes: "The Christ stating that whoever betrayed him would be damned." I have searched the AV version of the bible and couldn't even find the words damn or damned included. However, the word "betrayed" is used. The meaning of the Greek word, which was translated into the English word "betrayed" is: to surrender, to yield up, and to entrust or transmit. This is exactly what Judas was told to do and there is nothing sinister about this action. The Christ openly stated that this would occur, well in advance of the event. But, when we review the English translation of the word "betray" we get a different understanding: to be a traitor to or commit treason against or to reveal in a breach of confidence. This is not what Judas did.

However, in Matthew 12:31-32 it is recorded that the Christ stated: Every sin and blasphemy (can) be forgiven, even the ones against himself, but the sins against the power of God (Holy Spirit) will not. The Christ also stated that no one could take him unless it was granted them. First, in Matthew 26:52-56 and then, in John 19:11.

So, the conspiracy continues: you believe it, I don't.

And why did Judas commit suicide claiming he betrayed innocent blood?

Well, the truth is he didn't commit suicide…This would have been taboo for an Israelite. Suicide is fundamentally incompatible with Israelite (Jewish) law and values.

However, Judas would have been aware of the fact that the Christ stated: every sin and blasphemy (can) be forgiven, even the ones against himself. It makes no sense that he would commit suicide knowing this (if he felt, his actions were sin).

Hence, the conclusion is that Judas was murdered to advance and keep the lie alive. It is ironic that the only two men who knew the truth of the story were unlawfully killed.

[JehovahsWitness]

Judas was murdered to advance and keep the lie alive.

Do you have a bible reference to support this conclusion?

JW

[otseng]

And here I thought the kids TV show bible man didn't have any sources in the bible.

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[FWI]

[Replying to post 56 by JehovahsWitness]

Do you have a bible reference to support this conclusion?

There is no bible verse which states that Judas was murdered, yet there also isn't a bible verse that claims the Christ was a created angel. So, we need to be careful, in claiming that if the modern bibles don't state it, this means: it is not valid.

However, I have introduced circumstantial evidence from the bible and there is additional evidence (outside of the bible), which support the idea that Judas did not betray (commit treason) against the Christ. Therefore, since the Christ chose Judas for the task of turning himself over to the Pharisees, there would be no need for Judas to commit suicide. The only other option is: the unlawful death of Judas, since there is no evidence that he died naturally.

The odd part of the mainstream belief, related to this topic, is the idea that if Judas didn't do what he did, then the Christ wouldn't have died (since he was sinless). But, if this was the case, all of mankind would be lost, because the Christ needed to be resurrected from being dead, for anyone to have hope of escaping the finality of death…

So, then the question must be asked: If not Judas, then who?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 56 by JehovahsWitness]

Do you have a bible reference to support this conclusion?

There is no bible verse which states that Judas was murdered, yet there also isn't a bible verse that claims the Christ was a created angel. So, we need to be careful, in claiming that if the modern bibles don't state it, this means: it is not valid.

However, I have introduced circumstantial evidence from the bible and there is additional evidence (outside of the bible), which support the idea that Judas did not betray (commit treason) against the Christ. Therefore, since the Christ chose Judas for the task of turning himself over to the Pharisees, there would be no need for Judas to commit suicide. The only other option is: the unlawful death of Judas, since there is no evidence that he died naturally.

The odd part of the mainstream belief, related to this topic, is the idea that if Judas didn't do what he did, then the Christ wouldn't have died (since he was sinless). But, if this was the case, all of mankind would be lost, because the Christ needed to be resurrected from being dead, for anyone to have hope of escaping the finality of death…

This question seems to assume that if Judas didn't betray him someone else would need to, but is this necessarily the case for Jesus to be resurrected from the dead? He could eventually die of natural causes and then resurrect from the dead, no? Being sinless wouldn't result in immortality. We know this because he had already reached the ripe old age of 33, and in those days he was no young buck anymore. The resurrection isn't what pays the penalty for sin. It is his death that pays the penalty. Some would even go so far as to say that the penalty is eternal separation from God which comes under the heading of the second resurrection unto damnation. Eternal life isn't the penalty for sin.

[brianbbs67]

The resurrection isn't what pays the penalty for sin. It is his death that pays the penalty. Some would even go so far as to say that the penalty is eternal separation from God which comes under the heading of the second resurrection unto damnation. Eternal life isn't the penalty for sin.