How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew ?

[dio9]

Tradition clearly states Jesus was betrayed.
How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew Judas was going to betray him? Betrayal is a surprise unexpected . Betrayal means taken by surprise. Have you ever been betrayed?

I believe Jesus was betrayed but as a biblical buff question the Gospel account where Jesus dismisses Judas to go do what he has to do.

John 13:26
Jesus replied, “He’s the one I give the piece of bread to after I have dipped it.� When He had dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son.

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

As I said I believe he was betrayed but am afraid the account in John's Gospel is drama.

Show me I am thinking wrong.

[dio9]

This second point brings tomind the Gospel of Judas where Judas is presented as Jesus' most faithful apostle for if he had not betrayed his master what? we wouldnot have had the salvation through Jesus' passion.

There is a reason the 'Gospel of Judas' is not in the Bible cannon. It's not God-Breathed.

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand God. If Judas had decided not to betray Jesus, Satan would have found another. There was no shortage of people that would have betrayed Jesus for money.

Would there have been salvation through Jesus' death if Judas had not sold Jesus out? The answer is yes. Judas was not some huge linchpin for salvation. He was more like pawn in a sea of pawns. Look at how many in the Jewish leadership hated Jesus. To say Judas was the only one in the whole nation of Jews that could have betrayed Jesus is silly. Matthew 12:14 says they conspired to kill him. This could have included any number of plans. They must have beside themselves with glee when one of Jesus' own disciples approached them. Think of plan by a far more intelligent being than that of a man like a GPS route. When a road is blocked it quickly reroutes the path. Satan could have has many routes to his destination has he wanted. What he was blind to was no matter what he plotted, the end result would seal his own judgement. Fulfilling the first prophecy told in Genesis 3:15. Satan's strike to Christ's heel would at the same time deal a crushing blow to Satan's head. Jehovah outwitted Satan in every way. There is no way a single person's decision could have weighed so heavily as to the outcome.

Never the less someone would have to do it, the Gospel of Judas says that person would be a providential hero, for apparently Jesus had to be betrayed, in order to fulfill God's plan for our salvation.
I don't know , did Jesus not have to be betrayed?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 12 by shnarkle]

good point snarkle. but who enters a marriage thinking their spouse may betray them?

Only a fool would enter into a marriage thinking that wasn't a possibility.

Would the perfect word of God not whole hardheartedly trust his disciple without doubt, with perfect trust ?

Nope. The texts state that he knew what was in the hearts of men, and it wasn't anything good. As he pointed out, "only God is good". Some may ask how one knows that what is in the heart of men isn't good. The answer lies in the biblical texts themselves, e.g. "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" God, and anyone God chooses to reveal it to.

[rikuoamero]

This second point brings tomind the Gospel of Judas where Judas is presented as Jesus' most faithful apostle for if he had not betrayed his master what? we wouldnot have had the salvation through Jesus' passion.

There is a reason the 'Gospel of Judas' is not in the Bible cannon. It's not God-Breathed.

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand the intelligence of a spirit creature that has lived for who knows how long. If Judas had decided not to betray Jesus, Satan would have found another. There was no shortage of people that would have betrayed Jesus for money.

Would there have been salvation through Jesus' death if Judas had not sold Jesus out? The answer is yes. Judas was not some huge linchpin for salvation. He was more like pawn in a sea of pawns. Look at how many in the Jewish leadership hated Jesus. To say Judas was the only one in the whole nation of Jews that could have betrayed Jesus is silly. Matthew 12:14 says they conspired to kill him. This could have included any number of plans. They must have beside themselves with glee when one of Jesus' own disciples approached them. Think of plan by a far more intelligent being than that of a man like a GPS route. When a road is blocked it quickly reroutes the path. Satan could have has many routes to his destination has he wanted. What he was blind to was no matter what he plotted, the end result would seal his own judgement. Fulfilling the first prophecy told in Genesis 3:15. Satan's strike to Christ's heel would at the same time deal a crushing blow to Satan's head. Jehovah outwitted Satan in every way. There is no way a single person's decision such as Judas could have weighed so heavily as to the outcome.

What I got from that is that ultimately...it doesn't really matter what route God took...his end goal would have been realized regardless.
To which I ask - why then did God go with the Jesus being falsely accused, tortured and executed route? If as you say God is so smart and all...why did he go with that route? Why not plan around it?
Your description of what an intelligent entity would do is very strange. It's like saying to me that a driver who has a choice of roads to drive on but chooses to drive through a house killing an innocent child in the process is an intelligent driver. Yeah...no. Not buying that.

[shnarkle]

This second point brings tomind the Gospel of Judas where Judas is presented as Jesus' most faithful apostle for if he had not betrayed his master what? we wouldnot have had the salvation through Jesus' passion.

There is a reason the 'Gospel of Judas' is not in the Bible cannon. It's not God-Breathed.

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand God. If Judas had decided not to betray Jesus, Satan would have found another. There was no shortage of people that would have betrayed Jesus for money.

Would there have been salvation through Jesus' death if Judas had not sold Jesus out? The answer is yes. Judas was not some huge linchpin for salvation. He was more like pawn in a sea of pawns. Look at how many in the Jewish leadership hated Jesus. To say Judas was the only one in the whole nation of Jews that could have betrayed Jesus is silly. Matthew 12:14 says they conspired to kill him. This could have included any number of plans. They must have beside themselves with glee when one of Jesus' own disciples approached them. Think of plan by a far more intelligent being than that of a man like a GPS route. When a road is blocked it quickly reroutes the path. Satan could have has many routes to his destination has he wanted. What he was blind to was no matter what he plotted, the end result would seal his own judgement. Fulfilling the first prophecy told in Genesis 3:15. Satan's strike to Christ's heel would at the same time deal a crushing blow to Satan's head. Jehovah outwitted Satan in every way. There is no way a single person's decision could have weighed so heavily as to the outcome.

Never the less someone would have to do it, the Gospel of Judas says that person would be a providential hero, for apparently Jesus had to be betrayed, in order to fulfill God's plan for our salvation.
I don't know , did Jesus not have to be betrayed?

Nope. The message could have been recieved, and the kingdom come into existence. Until that happens it is held in abeyance.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 17 by 2timothy316]

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand God.

God is incomprehensible,

Comprehending God fully is certainly not possible, neither is comprehending how Satan accomplishes what he accomplishes. We know only the fringes of God's ways. (Job 26:14) We also have to look at God's adversary. People underestimate Satan all the time. Even though we are told his tactics. He keeps 'disguising himself as an angel of light' recruiting 'deceitful workers'. (2 Cor 11:13, 14) But he is very good at what he does and without God's Word the Bible to give us instruction, we would be defenseless. The details in this fight for people's loyalty is beyond our full comprehension but not beyond our means to fully guard ourselves.

When it comes to Jehovah we can be sure of one thing even though we can't understand how, "Just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, . . . so my word [God’s word] that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.� (Isaiah 55:10, 11)

[2timothy316]

To which I ask - why then did God go with the Jesus being falsely accused, tortured and executed route? If as you say God is so smart and all...why did he go with that route? Why not plan around it?

To answer Satan's taunts. Jehovah said of Job that he was great man that loved Him.

"At that Satan answered Jehovah: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? Have you not put up a protective hedge around him and his house and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land." - Job 1:9, 10.

Like Job, if God had protected Jesus and what proof would there be that Jesus only loved God for who He is and not because of God's protection. The reason the whole world is in the state that it is in today is not because to prove God has power to stop it, but that Jehovah has the right to rule the Earth and neither fallen angel or any man has that right. During that time we are all tested by Satan if we love God and loyal to Him for the protection He is capable of or do we love Him for who He is. "Be wise, son, and gladden my heart, so that I may give an answer to the one who taunts me." Pro 27:11.

[shnarkle]

People underestimate Satan all the time. Even though we are told his tactics. He keeps 'disguising himself as an angel of light' recruiting 'deceitful workers'. (2 Cor 11:13, 14) But he is very good at what he does

Sure, but I think the problem is in ourselves rather than in Satan in that we tend to look at what we want to look at instead of looking at what God has revealed to us. Take your example here with Satan disguising himself. Instead of looking at the disguise we might instead look at what is getting disguised in the first place, i.e. "himself" which as it turns out is precisely what Christ suggests be denied in the first place.

without God's Word the Bible to give us instruction, we would be defenseless. [

Even with the bible, one may be just as defenseless, especially if one doesn't understand what they're reading. The light may shine into the hearts of men, but it there is no way for them to receive it, then the darkness is incapable of understanding. Job is another example. God tells Satan he can do anything he pleases to Job, but who is Job dealing with other than Job himself? It is the self that is being attacked, and the self that must be denied. This is the only thing Satan can attack. No self, means no target for satan.

The details in this fight for people's loyalty is beyond our full comprehension but not beyond our means to fully guard ourselves.

I disagree. The self cannot be defended in the first place. Being self aware necessarily requires a sense of vulnerability.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

So if you know your wife's cheating on you, she's not cheating on you?

Is it cheating, if we take the John analogy?

Well it's not making a cheese sandwich is it?

Adultery or betrayal are not mitigated by foreknowledge, any more than if your dentist tells you before pulling your tooth "Now this is going to hurt a bit" means you haven't really lost the tooth. An action doesn't take on an entirely new definition because someone knew it was about to happen.


JW

[dio9]

[Replying to post 17 by 2timothy316]

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand God.

God is incomprehensible, but the message Jesus proclaimed allowed for people to repent and bring the kingdom into being. Even after Jesus had died, the message of repentance is no less valid and the disciples proclaimed it again and again. The sacrifice is worthless to those who continue to ignore it. Without repentance it is meaningless. However, if the nation of Israel had received the kingdom, no sacrifice would have been necessary. Where there is no sin, there is no need for sacrifice.

Excellent point you bring out here, If the people had believed there would have been no need for a sacrifice.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 17 by 2timothy316]

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand God.

God is incomprehensible, but the message Jesus proclaimed allowed for people to repent and bring the kingdom into being. Even after Jesus had died, the message of repentance is no less valid and the disciples proclaimed it again and again. The sacrifice is worthless to those who continue to ignore it. Without repentance it is meaningless. However, if the nation of Israel had received the kingdom, no sacrifice would have been necessary. Where there is no sin, there is no need for sacrifice.

Excellent point you bring out here, If the people had believed there would have been no need for a sacrifice.

It would seem that way, wouldn't it? The problem with my oversimplified point is that everyone isn't going to believe, or repent.

We also don't usually think of sin the way the Mosaic law presents it. When we think of sin, we think of those things we do intentionally that we know are wrong, while the Mosaic law includes any and all things we do unintentionaly or accidentally. The problem is that under the Mosaic law, which is the ONLY law Christ came to fulfill, sacrifice only covers unintentional sin. The remedy for intentional sin was never sacrifice, but repentance and restitution. Paul points this out for those who think that they can go out and sin intenionally after coming to the truth of Christ. It simply isn't possible.

To come to the truth is to sacrifice one's own life, and once one has set aside their own life, there's no way they would pick it back up again. So on some level, that sacrifice took place at the very beginning, and the crucifixion is probably an illustration of what has to happen for anyone to enter into the kingdom. This seems to be right in line with Paul's understanding. This isn't to say that we can save ourselves, but that Christ shows us the way. He communicates the way to us, and we become that same light to the world. This is what the gospel writers point out when they have Christ say to his disciples, "You are the light of the world". To enter into the kingdom is to lose one's own life.