Jesus as Creator?

[Elijah John]

Some consider Jesus to be the Creator. This seems to an extreme example of Jesus worship, and goes against even conventional Trinitarian doctrine, which holds that the Father is Creator, the Son is Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier.

For debate,

1) When you see a beautiful sunset, a mountain or ocean scene, do you stop with awe and wonderment, and tell yourself "Wow, a first-century Palestinian Jew created all this"?

2) Even in the Gospels, is there any recorded instance where Jesus created anything "ex nihilo"? Out of nothing?

3) Does Paul call Jesus "Creator" or come close to calling Jesus "Creator"? If so, where does he get this notion?

[DPMartin]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


well there's scripture

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gen 1:3 And God said,
Gen 1:5 And God called
Gen 1:6 And God said,
Gen 1:8 And God called
Gen 1:9 And God said,
Gen 1:11 And God said,
Gen 1:14 And God said,
Gen 1:20 And God said,
Gen 1:24 And God said,
Gen 1:26 And God said,
Gen 1:29 And God said,


Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


hence the Word of God is LORD, the LORD their God.



maybe not your god that fits your "theology"

but the Word of God is LORD, the LORD their God, the God of Israel. which is what the Lord has to say about it, but then there is your uninformed view of men "theology".

[Elijah John]

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If we equate "Word" with "Jesus" then yes, John makes the claim that Jesus was the agent of Creation.

But does even John record any instance of Jesus acting as Creator, while here on earth? Of having created anything ex nihilo?

In other words, does John support his own claim from the prologue to his Gospel, by any subsequent event from his own narrative of Jesus' life?

And regarding your Genesis references, those speak of God, not Jesus. Jesus is not mentioned in Genesis.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

son of god must have meant something different to the ancients than we do. Perhaps it was understood more in the pagan Roman/Greek sense. Or more probably in the Davidic sense as the filial king/son of God or a little of both.
Jesus is clearly theologically in the position of the son/ redeemer .
Whether he was the creator or not is irrelevant .

[tam]

Peace to you,


John 1:3 is more accurately translated:

Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.


"Through" Him.


Some translations use 'by', but most translations use the word "through".

http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm


You can see in the following link that "through" is actually the primary meaning of "dia" which the KJV (and a couple others) translate as "by". But it would also have been accurate to write "by means of".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1223&t=KJV


On top of that, "through" is in keeping with what others clearly wrote (including John, although the KJV translates this as "by" as well):

He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. John 10


Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Proverbs 8:30

("I" being Wisdom, who is Christ; and "Him" being JAH)




"...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Corinth 8:6

FROM the Father, THROUGH the Son.



Through/by means of... is the accurate rendering, the primary meaning of the word dia, and this translation (through/by means of) is supported by what other authors and verses state.






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


well there's scripture

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gen 1:3 And God said,
Gen 1:5 And God called
Gen 1:6 And God said,
Gen 1:8 And God called
Gen 1:9 And God said,
Gen 1:11 And God said,
Gen 1:14 And God said,
Gen 1:20 And God said,
Gen 1:24 And God said,
Gen 1:26 And God said,
Gen 1:29 And God said,


Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


hence the Word of God is LORD, the LORD their God.



maybe not your god that fits your "theology"

but the Word of God is LORD, the LORD their God, the God of Israel. which is what the Lord has to say about it, but then there is your uninformed view of men "theology".

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[shnarkle]

Some consider Jesus to be the Creator. This seems to an extreme example of Jesus worship, and goes against even conventional Trinitarian doctrine, which holds that the Father is Creator, the Son is Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier.

For debate,

1) When you see a beautiful sunset, a mountain or ocean scene, do you stop with awe and wonderment, and tell yourself "Wow, a first-century Palestinian Jew created all this"?

2) Even in the Gospels, is there any recorded instance where Jesus created anything "ex nihilo"? Out of nothing?

3) Does Paul call Jesus "Creator" or come close to calling Jesus "Creator"? If so, where does he get this notion?

Some traveling evangeiists made this same claim recently, and I pointed out that it wasn't Jesus himself that created everything. The texts indicate that "the word became flesh". They then conclude that the pre incarnate word was Jesus when he didn't even have that name assigned to him until he was eight days old.

I'm not sure that creation is necessarily ex nihilo in the bible mainly due to the phrase, "in the beginning God created". The beginning exists prior to creation, at least that's how it looks from that sentence. So God is creating "in the beginning". It's a minor point, but one that I can't exclude as a possibility. Jesus says things like, "This is my body", or "This is my blood". He's not literally saying that what he has in his hands is his physical body and blood, but he's creating something that wasn't there prior to his institution of these rituals. He changes water into wine. He controls the wind and calms the sea. He exercises power over the elements of creation. After all, we can't ignore the fact that everything that exists already exists so while we may posit that God's act of creation continues, this isn't necessarily the case. Although the "new creature" is one notable exception. The new creation isn't created from the old creature. The old creature dies, but what is born is explicitly claimed to be born from above while what was born from below will die.

Paul gets his notion of Christ as creator from the Shema. He elaborates upon it in his letter to the Corinthians. Here's the Shema:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4

Here's Paul's expansion upon it:

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8:6" [/qoute]

In other words Christ is the mean of creation. Creation takes place through him. He is the mechanism by which creation takes place.

There may be some variants of the Trinitarian docrine that suggest the Father as creator, but the biblical accounts seem to indicate a different interpretation in my opinion. One of the most popular phrases is: "Creature form to create, human form to redeem". It is definitely Christ who is linked with creation, and yet he's also linked to God in establishing covenants.

Christ is ultimately reality itself. Christ cannot be taken out of the equation as he is the copula. He is the Metaphor, the Symbol, the Icon of God. This doesn't mean that he's necessarily God as a Symbol can't be what it is substituted for. He's simply the vessel; God's vessel, and the problem is that people tend to focus on the vessel rather than what it contains. In this case it is transcendence or God, or one could even say the presence of God. Again, in every case, no matter what is presented, it isn't God, but some attribute of God. The presence of God is simply God's presence which shouldn't be conflated with God.

[Overcomer]

I don't have much time so I'll be brief. We read this in Col. 1:15, 16 in the NIV:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Note the prepositions. According to Bible scholar Craig Keener in The IVP Bible Background Commentary: The New Testament, ancient intellectuals used different prepositions to distinguish kinds of causation. (See notes under 1 Cor. 8:16 and Col. 1:16). He lists them as follows:

from (material)
through (instrumental)
by/in (modal)
for (purpose)

Note that in Col. 1:15 and 16, two of them (through and by/in) are used to describe Christ as creator. They make him the agent of creation. Jesus himself is NOT a created being. (John 1:1 says he WAS in the beginning, past tense meaning he existed prior to creation; in John 8:56-58, Jesus states of himself that he has always existed).

The New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses changes these verses from Colossians 1 by inserting the word "other" in them to make it seem like Jesus is a created being. It reads:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

But the word "other" is NOT found in the Greek. The NWT was not translated from the Greek text. In fact, its authors didn't know Greek. They wanted to make the verses read as if Christ was NOT eternal God, but a created being, so they inserted the word "other", thereby changing the original text to suit themselves.

Those interested in seeing the Greek lined up with the English translation can do so here:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1.htm

There are other verses that attest to Christ as creator, but, as I said, I have little time tonight. So that's all I can do for now.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by tam]

[quoteThen I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Proverbs 8:30

("I" being Wisdom, who is Christ; and "Him" being JAH) [/quote]

Proverbs 8 personifies wisdom, calling it "she" and "her".

It is not about "Christ".

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by tam]

John 1:3 is more accurately translated:

Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.


"Through" Him.

Are "through" and "by" the only translations possible of the Greek?

What do you understand they actually mean in this context?