Did Paul and/or John lay the foundation for Jesus worship?

[Elijah John]

In the New Testament, the Evangelist John and the Evangelist Paul come very close to calling Jesus "God" with extremely high Christologies.

But even if they believed it, neither of them come right out and say these three, simple words. "Jesus is God".

But they do come close. John with his prologue and the "I AM" statements, and Paul with his statement (perhaps quoted from another source) that Jesus is the "very image of the invisible God".

-For debate.

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

If so, why didn't they just come out and say so, with these three simple words:"Jesus is God"?

And finally,

Did the writings of John and Paul lay the foundation for the docrtine of the Trinity, and if so, do we have them to thank or to blame for that?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

Not at all.

[marco]

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

One can assert without believing. To honour Christ in a way similar to what Rome did with her Emperors was a way of impressing the gentiles, which Paul aimed to do; but not quite conferring the divine title kept the Jews reasonably happy.

Did the writings of John and Paul lay the foundation for the docrtine of the Trinity, and if so, do we have them to thank or to blame for that?

The Trinity is a theological conundrum devised by men and allegedly revealed by God. It is probably truer to say that the revelation came from Paul who effectively raised Christ to the status of God by the Damascus event. The Trinity is simply a way of avoiding polytheism.

[Elijah John]

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

One can assert without believing. To honour Christ in a way similar to what Rome did with her Emperors was a way of impressing the gentiles, which Paul aimed to do; but not quite conferring the divine title kept the Jews reasonably happy.

Did the writings of John and Paul lay the foundation for the docrtine of the Trinity, and if so, do we have them to thank or to blame for that?

The Trinity is a theological conundrum devised by men and allegedly revealed by God. It is probably truer to say that the revelation came from Paul who effectively raised Christ to the status of God by the Damascus event. The Trinity is simply a way of avoiding polytheism.

And an implicit assertion can shout louder than an explicit one. Both John and Paul spoke of Jesus or "Christ" in ways their fellow Jews and Jewish forebears only spoke of God.

John's Jesus calls himself the "Good Shepherd" By contrast, David calls YHVH his Shepherd.

Paul elevates Jesus name above all. Isaiah and David had previously done this for YHVH, and never taught the Messiah's name would eclipse the name of the Father.

But don't it beat all, that's exactly what happened. Witness the litanies fo the name of Jesus. Are their any liturgical litanies devoted to the name of YHVH?

When Catholics speak of "Sacred Name" societies, they are refering to Jesus, not Jehovah.

So functionally John, Paul and their Spiritual progeny really seem to have considered Jesus to be God.

I think Bart Ehrmann would agree with you on the second point. He points to belief in the Resurrection as the starting point for the development of the notion that "Jesus is God" in the minds of so many.

I think you're right Marco, the doctrine of the Trinity is a man-made theological construct, devised in order to blunt the charge of "polytheist"' or "idolator" while maintaining Jesus worship, and his status far above the human.

[onewithhim]

In the New Testament, the Evangelist John and the Evangelist Paul come very close to calling Jesus "God" with extremely high Christologies.

But even if they believed it, neither of them come right out and say these three, simple words. "Jesus is God".

But they do come close. John with his prologue and the "I AM" statements, and Paul with his statement (perhaps quoted from another source) that Jesus is the "very image of the invisible God".

-For debate.

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

If so, why didn't they just come out and say so, with these three simple words:"Jesus is God"?

And finally,

Did the writings of John and Paul lay the foundation for the docrtine of the Trinity, and if so, do we have them to thank or to blame for that?

Neither John nor Paul came even close to calling Jesus "God." They both differentiated between God and God's Son---always.

I have explained the Prologue and "I am" statements many times. Why do you continue to say that John actually said that Jesus is God at John 1:1 (which he did NOT) and that it is suggested at John 8:58 (where Jesus is accused of saying that he is God when the blind man at John 9:9 said the exact same words and yet he is not accused of claiming to be God)??

And being an "image" is not being that thing or person that you are the image of. How can Jesus being the "image" of the Father mean that he IS the Father? He simply REFLECTED the Father's qualities, and did everything just as he observed the Father doing. (John 5:19)

I do not for a second believe that either John or Paul thought that Jesus was God. And no, the writings of John and those of Paul did NOT lay the foundation for the Trinity Doctrine. We have the insidious twistingof their writings by later copyists and clergy to blame for that. Scholars today can pinpoint many corruptions of the original text (or, texts that are closest to the originals), and the list is lengthy. Paul himself warned of this apostacy that was to come: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak TWISTED THINGS to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30) Those twisted things would be such things as the Trinity Doctrine. We can see exactly who John and Paul thought Jesus was by looking at just two of their statements.

"These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31)

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ." (I Corinthians 1:3) Paul always differentiated between God and Jesus. This can be seen in all of his letters, and very clearly in his introductions. The Father is always God. Jesus is always God's Son.

[onewithhim]

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

One can assert without believing. To honour Christ in a way similar to what Rome did with her Emperors was a way of impressing the gentiles, which Paul aimed to do; but not quite conferring the divine title kept the Jews reasonably happy.

Did the writings of John and Paul lay the foundation for the docrtine of the Trinity, and if so, do we have them to thank or to blame for that?

The Trinity is a theological conundrum devised by men and allegedly revealed by God. It is probably truer to say that the revelation came from Paul who effectively raised Christ to the status of God by the Damascus event. The Trinity is simply a way of avoiding polytheism.

The Trinity is a glaring example of polytheism.

[Elijah John]

Do you think that either John or Paul believed that "Jesus is God"?

One can assert without believing. To honour Christ in a way similar to what Rome did with her Emperors was a way of impressing the gentiles, which Paul aimed to do; but not quite conferring the divine title kept the Jews reasonably happy.

Did the writings of John and Paul lay the foundation for the docrtine of the Trinity, and if so, do we have them to thank or to blame for that?

The Trinity is a theological conundrum devised by men and allegedly revealed by God. It is probably truer to say that the revelation came from Paul who effectively raised Christ to the status of God by the Damascus event. The Trinity is simply a way of avoiding polytheism.

The Trinity is a glaring example of polytheism.

I agree with you, owh. But in a case of "having your cake and eating it too" Trinitarians don't see it that way, and are loathe to admit that they are in fact, tritheists, and not monotheists.

[polonius]

Marco posted:

The Trinity is a theological conundrum devised by men and allegedly revealed by God. It is probably truer to say that the revelation came from Paul who effectively raised Christ to the status of God by the Damascus event. The Trinity is simply a way of avoiding polytheism.

Question: Where in Paul's epistles do you find any reference to a "Damascus" event?

[Overcomer]

Jesus himself claimed to be God. That’s why the Pharisees, scribes, and Sadducees accused him of blasphemy. That’s what blasphemy was – declaring one’s self to be God. John 10:33 reads, “You, a mere man, claim to be God.� And Jesus did not deny it because he was, indeed, declaring himself to be God.

Christ's I AM statement in John 8:58 is significant. “I AM� is a name that Yahweh gave himself in Ex. 3:14. It refers to the eternality of God -- that he was and is and always will be. The present participle makes his existence ongoing. Jesus used the title of himself. That means that he was claiming to be eternal God, having always existed. The fact that the people picked up rocks to stone him shows that they knew he was calling himself God because stoning someone to death was what one did with a blasphemer (Lev. 24:16). And, as I pointed out, that's what blasphemy was -- declaring one's self to be God. See here:

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-I-AM.html

And notice that, when Jesus made this claim of being I AM, it knocked his accusers off their feet. That's how shocking the statement was to them.

Then there's Mark 2:1-11. Four men bring a paralytic on a mat. Jesus says to him, “Your sins are forgiven.� The Pharisees are incensed and say, “Only God can forgive sins.� Jesus replies that he has the authority to forgive sins. Therefore, he’s saying that he is God.

Jesus allowed people to worship him. See Matt. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). If he had been a mere Jewish man, he would never have allowed that. If he had been an angel as JWs believe, he never would have allowed it, because only God can be worshipped. In Matt. 4:10, we read " . . . You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."

And then there’s Jesus’ use of the title “Son of Man� to describe himself, something he does a total of 88 times in the gospels. He is referring to the divine figure in Dan. 7:13-14. The High Priest recognizes he is claiming to be God and declares him guilty of blasphemy for doing so. For more read here:

https://www.bethinking.org/jesus/jesus-the-son-of-man

The title “Son of God� would also have been understood by his audience as a claim to be God. In the Ancient Near East, “son of� meant “a likeness of nature and equality of being� according to Charles Ryrie in Basic Theology. In John 19:7, the Jews insisted that Christ must die because he claimed to be the Son of God, meaning that he was claiming to be divine. Even the demons recognized him as such. In Luke 8:28, we read, "Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me." Even the demons recognized his divinity.

And, when the chief priests asked Jesus outright if he was the Son of God, Jesus replied, "I am" (Mark 14:60-62) and "You are right in saying I am" (Luke 22:67-70) and "Yes, it is as you say" (Matt. 26:63-63). So Jesus himself acknowledged his divinity.

Theologian Millard Erickson, in his book Christian Theology, notes that Jesus says of himself, “The Son of Man will send HIS angels and they will gather out of HIS kingdom all causes of sin and evildoers� (Matt. 13:41). He notes that, given that angels and the kingdom are both said to belong to God (Matt. 13:41, for example), and given that Jesus called them his own, it’s obvious that Jesus is saying that he is God.

Additionally, there’s the fact that Jesus gave himself the same authority as Scripture. In the Old Testament, prophets would speak for God, saying, “And the Word of the Lord came to me.� But Jesus says doesn't say he's speaking on behalf of God. He says, “You have heard it said . . . but I say to you . . . . (Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28).“ In other words, Jesus is speaking for himself as God Incarnate. See here:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/deityofx.html

The God of the Bible presents himself as a Triune Being, that is, one God who exists in three persons, NOT three gods who make up one person as JWs erroneously define the Trinity in an attempt to discredit Christian belief in it. Jesus himself constantly refers to his deity and his audience understands him as doing that.

And, of course, if he hadn't come to earth as God Incarnate, he would not have been able to atone for our sins as that "unblemished lamb" in sacrifice (Ex. 12:5; 1 Peter 1:19).

So it was Jesus himself who stated that he was, is, and always will be God.

[2timothy316]

Christ's I AM statement in John 8:58 is significant. “I AM� is a name that Yahweh gave himself in Ex. 3:14.

I guess Isaiah is God too ISAIAH 6:8.

Is every person that has ever said 'I am' in the Bible now God?

SMH Where does this stuff come from?