The "perfection of Jesus" myth

[Elijah John]

Is the notion of Jesus' moral perfection a myth?

Consider some New Testament evidence.

-

Why do you call me good? There is none good but God alone.

-Jesus underwent John's baptism "of repentance for the forgiveness of sins If Jesus was perfect, why would he need to repent of anything?

-

Let the dead bury their own dead

Is Jesus teaching against the Law here? Isn't there a Mosaic injunction to bury one's parents when they die? Is is a sin to tell people to break the Law? Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

For debate...

1) was Jesus indeed, morally perfect? If so, how do you account for this New Testament evidence to the contrary?

2) is there any other NT evidence that refutes the notion that Jesus was perfect?

3) Why is it so important for so many believers to cling to the notion that Jesus was perfect?

4) Does Jesus get a pass on all these things, because he is thought by many to be "God"? If he made the rules, can't he break them as well?

5) If Jesus did indeed keep the Law perfectly, isn't "being God" an unfair advantage in doing so?

------

Disclaimer, by attempting to establish the fact that Jesus was not perfect, the OP in no way is suggesting that Jesus was not a Godly, righteous or moral man. One can be all of those things without being "perfect".

[Elijah John]

Is the notion of Jesus' moral perfection a myth?

Consider some New Testament evidence.

-

Why do you call me good? There is none good but God alone.

-Jesus underwent John's baptism "of repentance for the forgiveness of sins If Jesus was perfect, why would he need to repent of anything?

-

Let the dead bury their own dead

Is Jesus teaching against the Law here? Isn't there a Mosaic injunction to bury one's parents when they die? Is is a sin to tell people to break the Law? Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

For debate...

1) was Jesus indeed, morally perfect? If so, how do you account for this New Testament evidence to the contrary?

2) is there any other NT evidence that refutes the notion that Jesus was perfect?

3) Why is it so important for so many believers to cling to the notion that Jesus was perfect?

4) Does Jesus get a pass on all these things, because he is thought by many to be "God"? If he made the rules, can't he break them as well?

5) If Jesus did indeed keep the Law perfectly, isn't "being God" an unfair advantage in doing so?

------

Disclaimer, by attempting to establish the fact that Jesus was not perfect, the OP in no way is suggesting that Jesus was not a Godly, righteous or moral man. One can be all of those things without being "perfect".

The opening question portion of the OP was easy to miss, as it was at the very top, right against the top margin, so I highlighted it here in my quote of the OP in bold.

As for the rest of the post, when someone presents something as evidence, they do not generally ask "is this evidence"? Rather, they make their case, and put out what they see as evidence for consideration. Implicit in the presentation is the invitation for our fellow debaters to attempt to refute or accept what is presented as evidence, and how well it does or does not support the premise of the OP. Or, offer alternative interpretations of the evidence presented.

[Elijah John]

No I don't believe the perfection of Jesus is a myth. My reason? because the BIBLE explicitly states that Jesus was without sin. There that's done.....

You mean Paul, and the author of Hebrews. The other portions of the New Testament contain examples of Jesus being less than perfect, including Jesus own statements.( "Why do you call me good?" etc.)

Am I expected to debate "evidence to the contrary" when I see no evidence to the contrary?.....


No there is no "other" evidence, because the word "other" implies some evidence has been accepted (by the person answering the question) and they are hitherto addressing additional evidence.

These statements illustrate the crux of the problem and the difficulty in debating Fundamentalists like JWs. Yes, we all have our biases, but JWs and Evangelicals have the additional challenge of bypassing their own indoctrination in order to read the Bible objectively. These assumptions, and this indoctrination include the following:

"The Bible can contain no contradictions because it is the Word of God and is perfect"

"There can be no evidence contrary to JW (or Evangelical) teaching".

So any examples of contradictions which are presented are often simply denied or "not seen" because the blinders of orthodoxy will not allow it.

[Elijah John]

The baptism(mikvah) was a ritual cleansing pool symbolically for was clean of sins.

I have heard this arguement before, even by some HJ scholars. I could be wrong, but I believe the purpose of the mikvah was to renew ritual purity, not to symbolically cleanse one of repented sin. A Jewish glossary by Rabbi Wildstein defines it as a "ritual purifying bath".

I think John was doing something entirely new here in offering baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.. A practice subsequently adapted and adopted by Christians as part of the initiation process.

John was also being a bit subversive in offering a channel of forgiveness without blood, bypassing the Temple.

[JehovahsWitness]

-Why did Jesus say "no one is good but God alone"?

My take on this is the following:

Jesus was using the poetic device hyperbole. Exagerating to make a point. "No one is good" read "no one is good compared to God".

If we take the statement literally instead of poetically, we formulate strange doctrines such as universal depravity and compose hymns that call us "wretches". Even the Bible indicates there are some good people, including Noah and his family, Job, Lot, etc, etc. Though it is implied, and assumed that all goodness comes ultimately from God.

source: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p914983

In view of the above I don't see it as a statement that nobody (including Jesus himself) is literally good (see above) and therefore it cannot logically be used to indicate whether or not Jesus was perfect.

Let me ask you this, what would constitute Biblical evidence that Jesus was not perfect?

- Breaking the Mosaic Law.
- Acting in a way that did not faultlessly reflect his Father's standards.
- Doing something that resulted in the promotion of harm or evil.



JW


RELATED POSTS


Not necessarily exhaustive or absolute
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 46#p864046

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SIN , PERFECTION , and ...THE RANSOM

[JehovahsWitness]

Have you ever publicly questioned any doctrine or policy of the Watchtower?

Why are you asking me about my personal life? What has that got to do with the OP? Does the OP mention me?

JWs and Evangelicals have the additional challenge of bypassing their own indoctrination in order to read the Bible objectively.

Ad Hominem duly noted; I personally however prefer to debate the content of a post not the poster or make blanket statements about the individuals in any given group.

Is the WTS really that perfect and infallible? If so, why do you believe this?

I'm sorry, did the thread change topic? Is is now about the Jehovah's Witness Watcthtower Society? I'm struggling to see the relevance of your question to the topic.


JW

[2timothy316]

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

Either that, or YOUR understanding of what Jesus said is not perfect. JW

So...instead of addressing my arguments, you simplistically attack my "understanding".

This is because of the presentation of dogmatism of what YOU think is perfect and not considering what the Bible's view or anyone else's of what perfect means. Really perfection is the debate. This thread is skipping many of the basics and has jumped to conclusions about perfection. Do you even know what a perfect human is in God's eyes? A human is obviously not a perfect god but why can't a human be a perfect human?

Another casualty of your accusation against Jesus is Jehovah's own work. To say that Jesus was not perfect do you realize you're saying that Jehovah is imperfect in His works and creation? This is not an attack on your understanding, it's an opportunity for you to take a look closer at what you are implying with the accusation. As far as attacks go, calling the 'perfection of Jesus' a myth, now you knew that was an inflammatory statement and of course people's hackles would go up. What did you expect when you make such an attack on a person that many call their loving savior? If Jesus wasn't at least a man comparable to Adam then there was not ransom paid for the sin brought on mankind. This means all mankind is doomed to death to a perfect law that we can never repay. The dogma you've presented isn't in harmony with any of these Bible based teachings and frankly makes Jehovah look like He doesn't know what He is doing nor can He be trusted to do something perfectly.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why did Jesus submit himself to John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins if he never commited any sin to repent of?

Do I have to accept that Jesus' baptism by John was in "repentance for the forgiveness of sins"? You get to make a claim without a single shred of supporting evidence but I am expected to take your conclusion seriously and respond? But of course unlike you *I* can't just make statement, I have to provide evidence, is that how this works?

[Elijah John]

Why did Jesus submit himself to John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins if he never commited any sin to repent of?

Do I have to accept that Jesus' baptism by John was in "repentance for the forgiveness of sins"? You get to make a claim without a single shred of supporting evidence but I am expected to take your conclusion seriously and respond? But of course unlike you *I* can't just make statement, I have to provide evidence, is that how this works?

Relax, here's the evidence. The exact wording that I used, and have used multiple times.

He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins,

It's in the Bible. Luke 3.3

That is a strong shred of supporting evidence, not just a "statement".

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 28 by Elijah John]

I see no mention of Jesus in that scripture? Indeed if I recall correctly Jesus, John and the events during Jesus' baptism indicate something exceptional was happening during Jesus' baptism. Is that all you have? A scripture about John baptising other people who were not Jesus or do you have something that actually mentions the subject of the discussion?

JW

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 28 by Elijah John]

I see no mention of Jesus in that scripture? Indeed if I recall correctly Jesus, John and the events during Jesus' baptism indicate something exceptional was happening during Jesus' baptism. Is that all you have? A scripture about John baptising other people who were not Jesus or do you have something that actually mentions the subject of the discussion?

JW

"Then Jesus came from Galʹi·lee to the Jordan to John, in order to be baptized by him. But the latter tried to prevent him, saying: “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you, and are you coming to me?� - Matthew 3:13, 14.

John didn't see the need for Jesus to be baptized. In fact at first John refused. Why after baptizing person after person did John suddenly find himself unworthy to baptize Jesus? Yet Jesus insisted on his baptism because "it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous." Matt 3:15. That is the reason Jesus was baptized.