Does the Law provoke sin?

[Elijah John]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

No, the Law is sweetness, bliss and salvation. The notion that the Law was/is a burden originated with the anti-Judaic Saul of Tarsus. As Deuteronomy 30:11-15 says:


"11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess."

Exellent reference. And contradictory to Paul. This is one of the references I had in mind for the OP:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.�[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

So, I would ask (anyone and everyone) If the Law does not actually provoke sin as asked in the OP, does it give opportunity for sinful desire, as claimed by Paul in this passage from Romans?

So "apart from the Law, sin was dead", according to Paul. Yet sinfully, Cain murdered Abel, before the Law had ever been given! Or was murder not considered "sin" in the days of Cain and Abel.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

No, the Law is sweetness, bliss and salvation. The notion that the Law was/is a burden originated with the anti-Judaic Saul of Tarsus. As Deuteronomy 30:11-15 says:


"11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess."

I just wanted to lay out the contradictory verse from Paul in one single post. Thanks for providing the quote from Moses, which embodies the whole attitude of the Tanakh toward the Law. Here is a verse from Paul (cited by Ted) which is contradicted by Moses:

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3.20

Moses said, "keep his commands...then you will live".

Contrast that to Paul who says "no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by works of the law".

Well, apparently at least in Moses day, God considered righteous those who embraced and abided by the Law.

And Jesus taught the same:

"if you would enter life, keep the Commandments

(Matthew 19.17)

[Elijah John]

Elijah John wrote:

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Does the current law of the land that says it is a punishable offence to murder somebody provoke you to go out and murder somebody? If so, why? If not, why not?

No, and that is part of the point I'm making. But would Paul agree? At the very least, he says that the Law, "gives opportunity" for sinful desires. Sounds a lot like "provoking". Cain found "opportunity" for murder before the Law was given which forbade it.

[onewithhim]

There can be no contradiction within the bible...

An interesting starting point. Why do you take that position? Let's take this step by step

We just pointed out a major contradiction in the Bible. Simple denial is not refutation. There are many contradictions in the Bible, some minute, some major. Whole threads have been made here on this site illustrating this.

So, Christian refutations of the accusation of contradictions are 'simple denial' while secularist denials of our interpretations that there are no contradictions are erudite logic? Blinded by bias?

That's just the point, you didn't refute or reconcile the contradiction at all, you simply denied it. That is not debate.

You started with the biased premise that

"there can be no contradictions contained in the Bible"

. Please support the claim.

Actually, that would make a good thread in and of itself. Another good thread, that is.

We have talked about this pretty extensively previously.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 20 by Elijah John]

I'll think about this some more. In the meantime, I awaited your response to my posts #14 and #15. Any comment?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

No, the Law is sweetness, bliss and salvation. The notion that the Law was/is a burden originated with the anti-Judaic Saul of Tarsus. As Deuteronomy 30:11-15 says:


"11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess."

Exellent reference. And contradictory to Paul. This is one of the references I had in mind for the OP:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.�[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

So, I would ask (anyone and everyone) If the Law does not actually provoke sin as asked in the OP, does it give opportunity for sinful desire, as claimed by Paul in this passage from Romans?

So "apart from the Law, sin was dead", according to Paul. Yet sinfully, Cain murdered Abel, before the Law had ever been given! Or was murder not considered "sin" in the days of Cain and Abel.

This is my understanding of how the Law "made sin abound":

While the measure of conscience given to men gave them a certain natural sense of right and wrong, God, by making the Law covenant with Israel, now specifically identified sin in its multiple aspects. Because mankind inherited imperfection from Adam, it became impossible for men to be declared righteous by works of the Law, for "by Law is the accurate knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:19,20, Galatians 2:16) The Law spelled out clearly what the full range and scope of sin was, so that, in effect, it caused trespassing and sin "to abound" in that so many acts and even attitudes were NOW IDENTIFIED as sinful. The sacrifices of the Law continually served to remind those under the Law of their sinful state. (Hebrews 10:1-4,11) The Law by these means acted as a tutor to lead them to Christ, that they "might be declared righteous due to faith." (Galatians 3:22-25)

"Why then the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made." (Gal.3:19)


Further, without the Law, Paul nor anyone else would not have known or discerned the full range or scope of sin, e.g., as Paul mentioned, the sinfulness of covetousness. As long as sin had not been specifically defined, a person could not really be accused of committing sins, sins that were not legally identified as sins. Before the Law came, Paul and the others of Israel lived uncondemned for sins that were not specified, but with the introductions of the Law, they all were designated as sinners under condemnation of death. The Law made them more conscious of being sinners. This does not mean that the Mosaic Law prompted them to sin....it exposed them as sinners.

Why would God do that? Because mankind was not being benefited by living apart from their Creator's standards and instructions. It was to our benefit to be told in no uncertain terms what our conduct would achieve for us.

One research book I have says this:

"The Law ...was good and beneficial as a protective guide and also legally established that all persons were sinners in need of redemption by God," also pointing out that the Israelites needed a Redeemer, which would prove to be Christ.

(Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.2, pp.966-967)

[Elijah John]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

I would say no, the Law didn't provoke sinful behavior. It simply showed humans what Jehovah's standards are, and it was a given that no one could ALWAYS measure up to these laws. We have inherited sin and fall into the snare of sin every day, sometimes in ways we aren't aware of. So that is why Jehovah issued the command that animals must be sacrificed as a way to show appreciation for the love and patience of God, until the Messiah would come, who was promised at Genesis 3:15.

Where is it written in the Torah that those sacrifices were supposed to stay in effect until the coming of the Messiah?

Adam and Eve didn't have any written laws because they started out perfect, and they had constant communion with Jehovah.

No law existed at that time, but surely Adam and his family knew about Jehovah's feelings about life. Cain merely gave in to his own selfishness and jealousy and took out his anger on his brother.

So being perfect, Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to murder even without the Law. Did they teach this to their children? Can Cain plead ignorance as a defense?

Or was he born perfect too.

[onewithhim]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

I would say no, the Law didn't provoke sinful behavior. It simply showed humans what Jehovah's standards are, and it was a given that no one could ALWAYS measure up to these laws. We have inherited sin and fall into the snare of sin every day, sometimes in ways we aren't aware of. So that is why Jehovah issued the command that animals must be sacrificed as a way to show appreciation for the love and patience of God, until the Messiah would come, who was promised at Genesis 3:15.

Where is it written in the Torah that those sacrifices were supposed to stay in effect until the coming of the Messiah?

Adam and Eve didn't have any written laws because they started out perfect, and they had constant communion with Jehovah.

No law existed at that time, but surely Adam and his family knew about Jehovah's feelings about life. Cain merely gave in to his own selfishness and jealousy and took out his anger on his brother.

So being perfect, Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to murder even without the Law. Did they teach this to their children? Can Cain plead ignorance as a defense?

Or was he born perfect too.

Yes, Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to murder. They had communed with Jehovah for untold years before they rebelled. They would have remembered Jehovah's instructions and principles even after they turned away from Him. Who know what they taught their children, but I believe Cain knew perfectly well that what he did was wrong. Jehovah even communicated with him, before he killed Abel, that he was thinking dangerously.

"Jehovah said to Cain: 'Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?'" (Genesis 4:6,7)

Jehovah tried to reason with Cain, knowing that Cain knew the difference between good and not doing good. But Cain kept on his murderous course anyway.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

No, the Law is sweetness, bliss and salvation. The notion that the Law was/is a burden originated with the anti-Judaic Saul of Tarsus. As Deuteronomy 30:11-15 says:


"11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess."

Paul of Tarsus isn't talking about the same law you're presenting here. He's talking about the law that "was added because of transgressions". He's talking about the law that was "against" us as referred to in

Take this book of the law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. Deut.31:26

[shnarkle]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

The law existed prior to be given from Sinai. You can't transgress a law that doesn't exist, therefore the law existed prior to sin. Israel had been in bondage for over 400 years so they needed a little refresher course in what it means to be in a covenant relationship with their God.