Revelation 20 is best understood in what way?

[Checkpoint]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

Here are just a few questions, for example.

1. How does the chapter fit in with the theme of the whole book?

2. The "thousand years", if literal, are for what purpose? If metaphorical or symbolic, this conveys what?

3. "the first resurrection" describes what, and takes place when?

4. "the lake of fire" is what, and how is it related to "the second death"?

5. What is the nature of the reign "with Christ" that is mentioned?

[brianbbs67]

Whether Ha'satan is bound for an eternity or not, matters not to men choosing to do evil. We as a people seem to do that just fine by ourselves. So, I think that part of the debate is moot.

[peacedove]

[JehovahsWitness]

My questions are as follows:

• 
  (1) What is to stop all of the above references [in Revelation] referring to a symbolic "Jersualem" rather than the literal city of Jerusalem?
  

Thank you,
JW

I'll limit myself to a single argument that is probably irrefutable and that you have ignored so far:

According to Jesus Christ, all the blood of all the martyrs since Abel would be avenged upon one generation, at one time and one place, and that place was Jerusalem's house, and that event was the desolation of that house, and that generation was Jesus' generation -- Mat 23:29-39.

So? So what?! Why should the fact that the first century judgement of the generation of Jews ( in the literal city Jerusalem) impose a literal reading on any reference to Jerusalem in the book of Revelation?

• Sure literal "Jerusalem" paid for the wicked deeds from "Abel to Zechariah" but but who would pay for the persecutions from 70CE to 2018 and later? Indeed, Jesus had explained there would be other persecutions and other martyrs, and we have already agreed there is anOTHER Jerusalem (a symbolic one) . Since history attests that well after the destruction of Jerusalem, Christians continued to be persecuted and executed for their faith, what stops the "Jerusalem" being a symbolic one and the martyrs being those that died forward of that time?

REVELATION CHAPTER 11

Now, the book of Revelation states that the two witnesses are prophets and they give their testimony in Jerusalem, the holy city, where the Lord was crucified, in chapter 11. Can you answer directly, is this literal, physical Jerusalem? I don't know what you are going to reply, but I can't see how you can claim that Jesus was crucified somewhere else or that the context and location of Revelation chapter 11 is somewhere else than Jerusalem, the literal physical city, where the Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11 does not speak about a "holy city" it speaks as about "The Great city" ; there is no mention of the word "Jerusalem " in this chapter.

[T]he book of Revelation states that the two witnesses are prophets and they give their testimony in [strike]Jerusalem[/strike], the [strike]holy[/strike] city, where the Lord was crucified, in chapter 11. Can you answer directly, is this literal, physical Jerusalem?

No, it is not.

.. but I can't see how you can claim that Jesus was crucified somewhere else

Jesus was indeed executed in physical literal Jerusalem but this passage is not speaking about his literal execution. The book of Revelation is highly symbolic and the reference to Jesus execution in fact is symbolic of the martyrdom of his spirit anointed brothers who while on earth represent him. Jesus had already explained any treatment of his "brothers" was exactly the same as teatment of him (see Mat 25:40), so the "Great city" were "Jesus" was killed represents the corrupt forces of evil that would persecut spirit anointed born again Christians during "The Lords day"


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

DUPLICATE

[peacedove]

[JehovahsWitness]

You can't use Mat 25:31-46 to change the topic, the time-frame or the people.

I didn't

The Topic: Symbolic "Jerusalem"
The time frame: The Lord's day (see post # 56 below) and beyond...
The people: God's loyal spirit anointed servants

RELATED POSTS (Index)
Full list of my posts up to this point in this thread

How does Revelation chapter 20 fit into the overall theme of the book of Revelation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 219#904219

When is The Lord's Day (Rev 1:10)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 433#905433]

Why is placing the events of Revelation 20 in the first century problamatic?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 861#904861

Does Revelation 22:6 saying the events would happen "shortly" necessarily mean in the first century ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 233#905233

Is there any evidence to suggest that Satan was NOT abyssed between 30-65 CE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 247#905247

How are we to understand REVELATION 20:1-3 (Satan bound & Abyssed)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 325#905325




FURTHER READING: The Book of Revelation—What Does it Mean?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... evelation/[/quote]

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 55 by JehovahsWitness]


QUESTION: When is "The Lord's day" as mentioned in the book of Revelation in Chapter 1 verse 10?

The book of Revelation is highly symbolic, its reference to "days" are not speaking about 24-hour days but to specific and limited periods of time.


THE LORDS DAY=THE LORDS PRESENCE

The Apostle Paul often associated "The Lord's day" (The day of our Lord) with the time of the rewards offered to born again Christians (compare Phil 2:16). Faithful of spirit anointed Christians were to be rewarded after they die with heavenly life with Jesus - ruling with him as kings (see Rev 20:6). But when will that be? A clue can be found in the following bible passage:

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 23-26 - NWT

But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

So what do we learn? That Jesus will rule as a king and bring all God's enemies to nothing. That "those that belong to Christ" are somehow associated with the beginning of this rule "during his presence" . So: Heavenly Reward = Christ's Presence = The Lords Day


WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF YOUR PRESENCE (Mat 24:3)?

The disciples understood that the beginning Christ's rule would be marked by his "presence". The period during which spirit anointed Christians are rewarded with heavenly life. As has been noted above, that "presence" or Pariousia in Greek, would mark the beginning of the Lords day. In Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 Jesus helped us to understand that his "presence" would be marked by events far into the future. Some of the events unique to their time in scale (worldwide conflicts, global (not just national) persecution of Christians, a worldwide preaching work by true Christians and the greatest period of tribulation the planet earth has ever seen*). We have only witnessed such events in our 20th and 21st centuries, the climax of which (the destruction of the wicked, the judgement of the world and the reward of the righteous) are yet in the future.

* Terrible as the destruction of Jerusalem was, it could in no way be regarded as more catastrophic for the planet than later disasters and conflics or indeed the flood of Noah's day

CONCLUSION There is much more to say about the Parousia (christs "presence") and the year of the beginning of kingdom rule, but the above demonstrates that rather than taking Revelation to be retrospective, looking at past events, it is Prophetic in nature speaking of events that would happen many thousands of years after the book itself was penned.

RELATED POSTS

Are we living during Christs Presence (the Lord's day) ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 842#898842

To see other posts in this thread dealing with the book of Revelation see the LINK below
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 432#905432

[peacedove]

You can't use Mat 25:31-46 to change the topic, the time-frame or the people.

I didn't

The Topic: Symbolic "Jerusalem"
The time frame: The Lord's day (see post # 56 below) and beyond...
The people: God's loyal spirit anointed servants

The nature and identity of the Jerusalem of Rev 11 I provided an extensive analysis showing that the symbols were Sodom and Egypt and that the the interpretation of the symbols was the literal, physical Second Temple Jerusalem. You have not addressed that at all.

I don't disagree that the time-frame of Rev 11 is also the timeframe for the Day of the Lord or the Lord's Day, or that this is the parousia. However, you have ignored that the Lord's Day and the parousia is the day of judgement upon Israel when the following happens:

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

Which is the day of the fulfillment of Isaiah 2-4:
1. Concerning Judah and Jerusalem (2:1)
2. Concerning the last days of Judah and Jerusalem (2:2)
3. Concerning the coming of the kingdom and the salvation of Israel (2:3-5)
4. Concerning the Day of the Lord (2:11-12,17,20)
5. When the people of Israel would hide in the caves and holes in the ground (2:19-21), which Jesus applied to Jerusalem in his generation in Luke 23.
6. When Jerusalem would suffer famine and become a heap of rubble (3:1-7)
7. When Jerusalem would be Sodom (3:9)
8. When God would judge the managers of the vineyard (3:12-15)
9. When 'your men will fall by the edge of the sword' (3:25, quoted by Jesus in Luke 21 above)
10. When Jerusalem would be repaid for her bloodguilt and cleansed by fire (4:4) that Jesus said would happen at the fall of the temple in his generation (Mat 23:29-39).

Jesus said that his parousia would be marked by the fulfillment of prophecy, including this one, in his generation. But, according to the source prophecy in Isaiah 2-4, and elsewhere, this is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

So the DAY OF THE LORD = the day of the Lord's judgement upon the evil tenant farmers, the time when the men of Israel would fall by the edge of the sword, at the desolation of Jerusalem.

However, you are placing the DAY OF THE LORD of Revelation 11, when those who destroyed the land were destroyed, in a different timeframe, and against a different Jerusalem, a symbolic one.

The people you are changing too. The focus of Rev 11 is upon those who received the testimony of the two witnesses, and who were judged for shedding their blood. These people can be identified specifically by the references to Sodom and Egypt, which in the bible are symbols of last days Israel, and by the geographical identifier of the place where ALSO their Lord was crucified.

You have not addressed the evidence that the two witnesses die in the SAME PLACE as their Lord was crucified. This is because you want to CHANGE the place, the time-frame and the people being subject to the judgement, notwithstanding your denial.

[peacedove]

[Replying to post 57 by peacedove]

It appears that JW, any anyone else who contends otherwise, is unable or unwilling to attempt to rebut the evidence I presented that the Great City of Revelation 11, is:
1. Symbolically Sodom and Egypt, and
2. Non-symbolically literal, physical Jerusalem, WHERE their Lord was also crucified, identified as such by numerous Old Testament and New Testament references and links and teachings.

This is problematic for Monta's claim, agreed by Checkpoint that:

Quote:
they have no literal meaning as they do not speak of earthly realities but spiritual/heavenly/divine.

Aptly put.
That is basically what I have come to see applies to the whole book.

As well as JW's claim that Sodom and Egypt are symbols of SYMBOLIC Jerusalem.

Revelation 11 refers to two witnesses who give testimony in and against the Great City, and who are martyred in the Great City, where ALSO their Lord was crucified.

Although it is possible that the two witnesses and their story are symbols, if they are symbols rather than referring to two literal individuals, what is their story symbolic of, if not:
1. God's provision of prophets (and/or the Law of Moses) to the Old Covenant people, those land-dwellers in their Great City, Jerusalem, and
2. The persecution and killing of the prophets God sent to the Old Covenant people, those land dwellers, and
3. The vindication of the blood of the prophets at and through the judgement of the Old Covenant people, particularly their rulers, at and through the judgement of the Great City, Jerusalem.

Is not the judgement of Jerusalem for shedding the blood of the prophets identified by Jesus as a specific and literal judgement on Jerusalem, in Jesus' this generation, at the desolation of the Second Temple, in Mat 23:29-39?

So, how can it be maintained that the book is about and only refers to heavenly and spiritual things that have no literal and specific application and meaning, in this case for the fall of Jerusalem?

The New Testament refers to both 'earthly realities' and 'spiritual/heavenly/divine.' Specifically, the 'earthly realities' of the Old Covenant system, city, temple, legal and political structure, and the 'spiritual/heavenly/divine' realities of the New Covenant system, city, temple, and its attendant legal and political system. The former, are types and shadows of the latter (Col 2; Heb 8, 10).

Patently, the relationship between the two are proved by the teaching of the book to the Hebrews which compares and contrasts:
1. The Old Creation, made by man, with hands, the earthly tabernacle, and
2 The New Creation, made by God, without hands, the heavenly tabernacle.

According to the book of Hebrews, the earthly tabernacle system was to be judged and reformed and pass away, and it was, at the time of writing of that book, ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

But this is perfectly parallel with Revelation 11 (and the Apocalypse as a whole), where the outer court of the temple was to be trampled upon, and Jerusalem was to be judged for shedding the blood of the prophets, at the time that the kingdom of God comes.

Since they are parallel passages, they deal with the same time and the same event, they have the same teaching as to the relationship between the old and the new. The identity of the old must therefore be the same. We cannot divorce Revelation 11 from its earthly realities, portrayed as the outer court of the temple and the streets of the Great City, where also their Lord was crucified.

This being the case, we are not wrong to notice other links and references to that event elsewhere in the book.

And if the book is predictive of and is about that judgement and that passing away of that Old Covenant system, at that time, the book was written before that event consummated -- shortly before, according to the book itself.

And if the passing away of the Old Creation is after the end of the 1000 years, the book, according to its own terms, was written shortly before that, and the 1000 years cannot be something that extends on (or fails to be fulfilled) for centuries after the book was written.

We need to honour the testimony and the text of the book itself, in interpreting and applying the teaching and instruction of the book. The book was written to specific First Century churches in Asia minor, about the sufferings they were then enduring, and promising them relief that would be both timely but also conclusive, final and complete against those who were then persecuting them, and who were responsible for the blood of the prophets. If we know the Old Testament and the words of our Lord himself, we should not be in the dark about which city and people piled up their bloodguilt for this up to heaven itself, and the time and manner of their repayment.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 57 by peacedove]

It appears that JW, any anyone else who contends otherwise, is unable or unwilling to attempt to rebut the evidence I presented that the Great City of Revelation 11, is:
1. Symbolically Sodom and Egypt, and
2. Non-symbolically literal, physical Jerusalem, WHERE their Lord was also crucified, identified as such by numerous Old Testament and New Testament references and links and teachings.

This is problematic for Monta's claim, agreed by Checkpoint that:

Quote:
they have no literal meaning as they do not speak of earthly realities but spiritual/heavenly/divine.

Aptly put.
That is basically what I have come to see applies to the whole book.

As well as JW's claim that Sodom and Egypt are symbols of SYMBOLIC Jerusalem.

Revelation 11 refers to two witnesses who give testimony in and against the Great City, and who are martyred in the Great City, where ALSO their Lord was crucified.

Although it is possible that the two witnesses and their story are symbols, if they are symbols rather than referring to two literal individuals, what is their story symbolic of, if not:
1. God's provision of prophets (and/or the Law of Moses) to the Old Covenant people, those land-dwellers in their Great City, Jerusalem, and
2. The persecution and killing of the prophets God sent to the Old Covenant people, those land dwellers, and
3. The vindication of the blood of the prophets at and through the judgement of the Old Covenant people, particularly their rulers, at and through the judgement of the Great City, Jerusalem.

Is not the judgement of Jerusalem for shedding the blood of the prophets identified by Jesus as a specific and literal judgement on Jerusalem, in Jesus' this generation, at the desolation of the Second Temple, in Mat 23:29-39?

So, how can it be maintained that the book is about and only refers to heavenly and spiritual things that have no literal and specific application and meaning, in this case for the fall of Jerusalem?

The New Testament refers to both 'earthly realities' and 'spiritual/heavenly/divine.' Specifically, the 'earthly realities' of the Old Covenant system, city, temple, legal and political structure, and the 'spiritual/heavenly/divine' realities of the New Covenant system, city, temple, and its attendant legal and political system. The former, are types and shadows of the latter (Col 2; Heb 8, 10).

Patently, the relationship between the two are proved by the teaching of the book to the Hebrews which compares and contrasts:
1. The Old Creation, made by man, with hands, the earthly tabernacle, and
2 The New Creation, made by God, without hands, the heavenly tabernacle.

According to the book of Hebrews, the earthly tabernacle system was to be judged and reformed and pass away, and it was, at the time of writing of that book, ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

But this is perfectly parallel with Revelation 11 (and the Apocalypse as a whole), where the outer court of the temple was to be trampled upon, and Jerusalem was to be judged for shedding the blood of the prophets, at the time that the kingdom of God comes.

Since they are parallel passages, they deal with the same time and the same event, they have the same teaching as to the relationship between the old and the new. The identity of the old must therefore be the same. We cannot divorce Revelation 11 from its earthly realities, portrayed as the outer court of the temple and the streets of the Great City, where also their Lord was crucified.

This being the case, we are not wrong to notice other links and references to that event elsewhere in the book.

And if the book is predictive of and is about that judgement and that passing away of that Old Covenant system, at that time, the book was written before that event consummated -- shortly before, according to the book itself.

And if the passing away of the Old Creation is after the end of the 1000 years, the book, according to its own terms, was written shortly before that, and the 1000 years cannot be something that extends on (or fails to be fulfilled) for centuries after the book was written.

We need to honour the testimony and the text of the book itself, in interpreting and applying the teaching and instruction of the book. The book was written to specific First Century churches in Asia minor, about the sufferings they were then enduring, and promising them relief that would be both timely but also conclusive, final and complete against those who were then persecuting them, and who were responsible for the blood of the prophets. If we know the Old Testament and the words of our Lord himself, we should not be in the dark about which city and people piled up their bloodguilt for this up to heaven itself, and the time and manner of their repayment.

Viewing it as they would have at the time, Isreal is the culprit. For sure. Mystery Babylon. Could be code for that or another city, Rome. Or us, here in the US, many times in the OT, kingdoms fell in a day. I am sure God's wrath falls harder on those in direct contact with Him or chosen by Him.