Revelation 20 is best understood in what way?

[Checkpoint]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

Here are just a few questions, for example.

1. How does the chapter fit in with the theme of the whole book?

2. The "thousand years", if literal, are for what purpose? If metaphorical or symbolic, this conveys what?

3. "the first resurrection" describes what, and takes place when?

4. "the lake of fire" is what, and how is it related to "the second death"?

5. What is the nature of the reign "with Christ" that is mentioned?

[tam]

Yes some of these (the second resurrection people) are granted life based upon their works; which works prove that the law (of love) is written upon their hearts.

I don't intend on getting into the weeds on this thread, primarily because I do not think that the purpose of the revelation is a code book on when and where to build bomb shelter, but to encourage Adonai's people to live according to Adonai's ways. In that vein, let me just not that HaTorah is the law of love. The second greatest commandment is a Torah commandment. Also, the means of salvation, i.e. atonement based on recognition, restitution and reformation as a means of grace, is also in HaTorah.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the dead and the resurrection that the Jews were originally expecting (those Jews who believed in an actual resurrection of the dead). So I am not surprised by what you have said.

Christ came and offered more. Oh, and also, He IS the bomb shelter.

(I would ask you what you mean when you say 'hatorah', though. I think you have answered that question before, but I forget your answer.)



Peace to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

By grace, a gift. Mouthing off by mouth 'I believe' means nothing.
Genuine faith in Christ means to believe that he is Divine truth. As such, good works will naturally follow and this is confirmation of our faith.

But then you still have men earning their own salvation by doing good works simply because they believe in Christ. I don't see how that would resolve the problem.

Born again, new creation in Christ Jesus, this is reality.

People change and you do good out of love towards God and your neighbor.

It is non believers who are not quite sure and thinking in case there is God
doing some good works will be in their favor.

According to the Gospels you don't do good out of love towards God. You do good because it's no longer possible for you to sin. That option is no longer available to you.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So once you accept Christ as your savior you are born again in Christ and you can no longer sin. If you continue to sin then you cannot be born again in Christ.

You see, prior to being born again in Christ you cannot help but sin, and therefore you cannot be held culpable for being a sinner. But after requesting undeserved grace in Christ you are save, and become a moral robot where you longer can sin.

So Christians who think they are "working" toward becoming better Christian can claim to be stumbling and falling in continued sin are not compatible with 1 John 3:9. According to John, those people are necessarily deceived and cannot be born again in Christ.

The only people who can be born in Christ are those who no longer sin, and they would also need to confess that their salvation had nothing to do with their own works. After all that would be impossible and since they cannot sin they cannot lie.

So anyone who claims that they are "working toward" becoming a better Christian, or "trying not to sin", or even continuing to "stumble and fall" short of the Glory of God clearly cannot be born again in Christ according to John.

According to John you can't be born of God and continue to sin.

So according to John there can be no born-again Christians who are stumbling and falling from perfection when it comes to sin. They cannot commit sin, so no stumbling and falling is possible.

[peacedove]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

The two verses in Revelation 20 that have always struck me as being in contradiction with the main theme of Christianity, and that is being "Saved by Grace" through Jesus.

The verses are:

Revelation 20:
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Why are these people being judged based on their own works?

It's my understanding that in Christianity no man can obtain salvation through his own works. Only through grace offered by Jesus can a man obtain salvation.

So why are these people being judged according to their own works?

If they had previously believed in Jesus and accepted him as their Lord and Savior, then it's my understanding that they are supposed to be forgiven their sins and given the "Free Gift" of eternal life. There would be no need to judge people who have already been forgiven.

But in here Revelation we have men being judged based on their own works.

So then we have questions:

1. Will everyone be judged whether they had accepted Jesus as their savior or not?

2. Or will these only be people who have not believed in Jesus or accepted him as their savior? Although, according to John 3:18 those people are condemned already, remember?

3. Even if it's only the people who didn't believe in Jesus, then the question becomes: Will any of these people be exonerated based on their own works? If so, then Jesus is not the only way to the Father and John 3:18 was wrong as well.

4. If not, then why bother "judging" them at all if they are all going to be condemned anyway? Why not just toss them straight in the hell hole?

I can't say that these kinds of inconsistencies with the main theme of Christianity surprise me, but I thought I'd mention them since this topic came up.

These inconsistencies highlight the problem with they way these texts are being interpreted.

If we get the who and the when right, the rest becomes much easier to understand and the inconsistencies disappear.

The people being judged are judged based on books. This is a reference to Daniel 12. The resurrection of Daniel 12 has some rise to everlasting life, and some rise to shame and everlasting contempt. These resurrections are of Daniel's 'your people' (Dan 12:1) who are Israel. The judgement of Daniel's 'your people' results in 'the power of the holy people' being 'completely shattered' (Dan. 12:7). This complete shattering of the power of the holy people happens after the great tribulation of Dan 12:1 goes on for 'time, times and half a time' (Dan. 12:7). In the book of Revelation, this is the same as the 42 months in which Jerusalem is trampled by the nations (Rev 11:2). And the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations, Jesus said would happen as follows:
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24).

So the WHO of the judgement is Daniel's people, Israel. But not all of them, for the remnant, whose names are written in the book of life, are delivered (Dan. 12:1).

Now look at the time when this judgement would fall on Israel. Jesus said it would happen in his generation (Luke 21:32). Jesus said he would come in judgement upon Israel in this time-frame:
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.� (Mat 16:27-28).

And have a look at what does it mean to 'repay each person according to what he has done' after some of his audience had died but while others were still alive. What were the sins to be repaid and avenged at that time, later in Jesus' generation, at the fall of the temple and the desolation of Jerusalem? Jesus said exactly what sins it was, and whose also:
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’� (Mat 23:29-39)

Jesus said that the sins he would repay men for at that time were the sins of killing Abel, killing the Old Testament prophets, (by implication, killing him), killing those prophets, scribes and sages he would send them.

So, if you aren't a First Century Jew, who opposed Christ and his message and stuck around Judea too long, this probably isn't for you.

[peacedove]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

The two verses in Revelation 20 that have always struck me as being in contradiction with the main theme of Christianity, and that is being "Saved by Grace" through Jesus.

The verses are:

Revelation 20:
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Why are these people being judged based on their own works?

It's my understanding that in Christianity no man can obtain salvation through his own works. Only through grace offered by Jesus can a man obtain salvation.

So why are these people being judged according to their own works?

If they had previously believed in Jesus and accepted him as their Lord and Savior, then it's my understanding that they are supposed to be forgiven their sins and given the "Free Gift" of eternal life. There would be no need to judge people who have already been forgiven.

But in here Revelation we have men being judged based on their own works.

The solution here is to understand what salvation is. What are we to be saved FROM? And how does GRACE provide a means of salvation from THAT?


Let's have a look at a text about it:

And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (1 Pet 1:17-19)

Peter wrote to the dispersion, i.e. the lost and scattered tribes of Israel, and he said they had been ransomed from the futile way inherited from the fathers. I.e. the Israeli patriarchs.

The old way of Israel held them captive, and Peter said Jesus redeemed them FROM THAT. That old way is the way of bondage, i.e. Egypt. Jesus is the exodus from that bondage. Jerusalem, is Egypt (Rev. 11:8). She is the Egyptian Hagar:

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. (Gal. 4:25)

We are saved from that old Mosaic system by GRACE. Grace means mercy, clemency, relief, forgiveness, i.e. not counting men's sins against them. If we do that, that is the means by which we are saved from the Mosaic system of retribution, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life.

Jesus said we should pray for forgiveness as we forgive others. By forgiving we escape the cycle of retribution and spread peace and clemency.

Jesus taught that those who 'lived by the sword would die by the sword' i.e. those that took up the sword of rebellion against Rome would suffer the Roman sword, what Paul described as the agent of wrath (Rom. 13).

[showme]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

Here are just a few questions, for example.

1. How does the chapter fit in with the theme of the whole book?

2. The "thousand years", if literal, are for what purpose? If metaphorical or symbolic, this conveys what?

3. "the first resurrection" describes what, and takes place when?

4. "the lake of fire" is what, and how is it related to "the second death"?

5. What is the nature of the reign "with Christ" that is mentioned?

1. It is with respect to the "day of the LORD", whereas "all" are judged according to their deeds. This with respect to the "1000 years", and both beginning and the end.
2. One day is as a thousand years. It is the 7th day of rest, the LORD's day, when kind David will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years (Ezekiel 37:24)
3. The first resurrection is at the "end of the age" (Daniel 12:13) when the righteous, such as Daniel will reign for 1000 years until the final judgment.
4. The 2nd death, is the death after judgment, whereas there will be no more consciousness for the "wicked".
5. The nature of the reign, is one of whereas the "Word of God" will rule the nations with a "rod of iron". (Revelation 19:15). Such as if you don't keep the rules, "no rain shall fall on them". (Zechariah 14:17).

[showme]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

The two verses in Revelation 20 that have always struck me as being in contradiction with the main theme of Christianity, and that is being "Saved by Grace" through Jesus.

The verses are:

Revelation 20:
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Why are these people being judged based on their own works?

It's my understanding that in Christianity no man can obtain salvation through his own works. Only through grace offered by Jesus can a man obtain salvation.

So why are these people being judged according to their own works?

If they had previously believed in Jesus and accepted him as their Lord and Savior, then it's my understanding that they are supposed to be forgiven their sins and given the "Free Gift" of eternal life. There would be no need to judge people who have already been forgiven.

But in here Revelation we have men being judged based on their own works.

So then we have questions:

1. Will everyone be judged whether they had accepted Jesus as their savior or not?

2. Or will these only be people who have not believed in Jesus or accepted him as their savior? Although, according to John 3:18 those people are condemned already, remember?

3. Even if it's only the people who didn't believe in Jesus, then the question becomes: Will any of these people be exonerated based on their own works? If so, then Jesus is not the only way to the Father and John 3:18 was wrong as well.

4. If not, then why bother "judging" them at all if they are all going to be condemned anyway? Why not just toss them straight in the hell hole?

I can't say that these kinds of inconsistencies with the main theme of Christianity surprise me, but I thought I'd mention them since this topic came up.

There are in general two paths to choose from. One being the narrow path to "life" (Matthew 7:14), or the "broad" "way" to "destruction", The "many" choose the "broad" "way" to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), which is to follow the "false prophets" of Matthew 7:15, which would be the two shepherds of Zechariah 11:7, Peter and Paul, who were to "shepherd the flock doomed to slaughter". Paul's false gospel of grace/cross, is the wide path to "destruction" which them "many" walk. The narrow path to life, which is to keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17), which the "few" enter. All are judged by their "deeds". Paul is a flim flam man, who collects all the money on the first day of the week, just as his brothers in crime do today. (Isaiah 56:11)

[Monta]

[Replying to post 21 by Divine Insight]



"According to the Gospels you don't do good out of love towards God. You do good because it's no longer possible for you to sin. That option is no longer available to you.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Intent, desire, love, this is what drives us. Swedenborg call it ruling love.
If your ruling love is loving God and the neighbor, even if you fail again and again your ruling love does not change unless you willingly change opposite to love.

When a disciple asked Jesus how many time to forgive, Jesus said 99 times.

'He can not sin because he is born of God'.
Perhaps we should have clarified from the beginning, what is a sin?

[showme]

[Replying to post 21 by Divine Insight]



"According to the Gospels you don't do good out of love towards God. You do good because it's no longer possible for you to sin. That option is no longer available to you.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Intent, desire, love, this is what drives us. Swedenborg call it ruling love.
If your ruling love is loving God and the neighbor, even if you fail again and again your ruling love does not change unless you willingly change opposite to love.

When a disciple asked Jesus how many time to forgive, Jesus said 99 times.

'He can not sin because he is born of God'.
Perhaps we should have clarified from the beginning, what is a sin?

Most know that "sin" is transgression of the Law. What they apparently don't understand is being "born of God". If one sins, they are born of the devil (1 John 3:8).

[brianbbs67]

(I would ask you what you mean when you say 'hatorah', though. I think you have answered that question before, but I forget your answer.)



Peace to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Blue will give his own answer I am sure. But, in general Ha' in front of a word in Hebrew means High or holy. Earth=shem, Heaven=Ha'shem, water and high water...

[Monta]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]


"Jesus will rule as king over this our planet earth, transforming it into a garden like paradise for all its inhabitants. All human governments will be destroyed and replaced with Jesus' own government of himself and 144,000 co-rulers. It is these co-rulers that are spoken of in Revelation 20:6 as being "kings" that reign with Christ. They will rule over the domain of the earth for 1000 years. "

I just read chapter 20 and there is no mention of 144.000.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

If earth and heaven fled away from His face, hardly think some humans shall be reigning with Him and why would He need them when He is the Almighty.
Revelation is highly figurative written in correspondences and representation. Kings represent truth, priests, good.
In heaven it would be divine truth and divine good.