Revelation 20 is best understood in what way?

[Checkpoint]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

Here are just a few questions, for example.

1. How does the chapter fit in with the theme of the whole book?

2. The "thousand years", if literal, are for what purpose? If metaphorical or symbolic, this conveys what?

3. "the first resurrection" describes what, and takes place when?

4. "the lake of fire" is what, and how is it related to "the second death"?

5. What is the nature of the reign "with Christ" that is mentioned?

[brianbbs67]

By grace, a gift. Mouthing off by mouth 'I believe' means nothing.
Genuine faith in Christ means to believe that he is Divine truth. As such, good works will naturally follow and this is confirmation of our faith.

But then you still have men earning their own salvation by doing good works simply because they believe in Christ. I don't see how that would resolve the problem.

I have an answer for this. If you accept Christ and agree to practice his ways And Gods, your fruit will be good works. False acceptance and fruit will be bad.

Its not that you earn your salvation by doing good. Its , that being saved, you do good as a result. Otherwise, you are not really repentant. I am not talking about occasional mistakes, rather the collective sum of one's actions becoming better and better.

[peacedove]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

Here are just a few questions, for example.

1. How does the chapter fit in with the theme of the whole book?

2. The "thousand years", if literal, are for what purpose? If metaphorical or symbolic, this conveys what?

3. "the first resurrection" describes what, and takes place when?

4. "the lake of fire" is what, and how is it related to "the second death"?

5. What is the nature of the reign "with Christ" that is mentioned?

The best way to approach the questions is to compare scripture with scripture. Find the elements in Rev 20, and see what the rest of the scriptures teach, and that is probably what Rev 20 means.

Start with the binding and loosing of Satan. Mat 12 sets out the binding of the strong man in Jesus' generation and in Jesus' personal ministry. The result is that the house is cleared. But later in that generation, Satan is loosed and the house gets haunted even worse and the divided house falls. This gives us the meaning and the time-frame for Rev 20 -- Jesus' generation up to the fall of the house.

Compare with 2 Thes 2 and the restraint of the Man of Sin. Satan's man and his worker is presently, in 51 A.D. being restrained, but Paul predicts that the restrainer will soon be taken out of the way, the Man of Sin revealed in the Jerusalem temple, the house, and he deceives the nations resulting in a rebellion followed by his defeat. Paul said it would happen in his generation and that the destruction of the Man of Sin would bring relief for his original audience from the (Jewish) persecution they were suffering (2 Thes 1:5-10).

In 57 A.D. Paul said Satan would be crushed under the feet of the saints shortly (Rom 16:20).

Then, later on, in about 65 A.D., Peter said that Satan was not bound but on the loose seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet 5:8).

In summary, in 30 A.D. Satan was bound, in 51 A.D. Satan's man was restrained, in in 57 A.D. Satan was soon to be crushed, in 65 A.D. Satan was loose. So the 1000 years went from about 30 A.D. to about 65 A.D. Post-biblical history has the rebellion at 66 and the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. to round out the picture, chronologically.

Then look at the preaching of the gospel to the nations. Satan being bound means that the nations aren't being deceived (Rev 20:3). The Great Commission was given in 33 A.D. and completed in that generation according to Paul, who, remember, taught in 57 A.D. that the defeat of Satan would happen soon. And John, writing Revelation in about 68 A.D. said it was very soon.

Look at the ruling and reigning of Christ and his saints. Paul said this was contemporary with his letter to the Ephesians (Eph. 1-2). The resurrection was something that the New Testament writers said was going on at their time, e.g. Rom 6:11-14.

The 144000 didn't receive the mark of the beast. But Rev 14:4 states that the 144000 are the firstfruits an Rev 14:3 states they have been redeemed from the land. Land in the book of Revelation and in the bible generally refers to the land of Israel, and the 144000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. So, the firstfruits redeemed from the land of Israel, of the 12 tribes, are the FIRST GENERATION of Jewish Christians. John said he was their brother in the tribulation (Rev 1:9) -- John, being a FIRST GENERATION Jewish Christian. And he said that the events in the book must happen very soon (Rev 1:1-3). So the context of those martyrs referred to in the book are or primarily are those Jewish Christians suffering in the First Century, around 68 A.D. when the book was written. These are the martyrs of chapter 20, as the chapter states, they did not receive the mark of the beast (20:4). As in chapter 6 the martyrs receive an initial vindication, and awaited a final vindication at the avenging of the blood of the martyrs against their persecutors in a little while. Since the martyrs are to be avenged a) a little while after the book was written in 68 A.D. and b) at the fall of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 A.D. (Mat 23:29-39), necessarily, the end of the 1000 years had then already happened since Satan is loosed against them and is persecuting them now for a little while, but will soon be defeated.

When the 1000 years ends, Satan is loosed for a little while. This is the same little while from Rev 12:12 which is 'time, times and half a time' of Rev 12:14 and Dan 12:7. In Dan 12:7, the time times and half a time ends when the power of the holy people is completely shattered. Which is when the city and the sanctuary are desolated (Dan. 9:24-27). This is also the 42 months when Jerusalem is given over to the nations to be trampled of Rev 11:2. Rev 11:2 is parallel to Luke 21:24, predicting the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. So, it all comes back to this time, place and event.

Death and Hades are defeated at the end, along with Satan. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Cor 15:24-26). But death is destroyed when Christ destroys 'every rule, every authority and power' of his enemies. The judicial, political and military authorities of Christ's enemies were totally destroyed in 70 A.D.

In summary:

Satan = the synagogue of Satan, those who say they are Jews but are not, i.e. unfaithful Old Covenant Israel

The Beast = The Zealot rebel forces and powers who took over the Jerusalem temple, killed those who wanted peace and who opposed their rebellion

The False Prophet = the false prophets employed by the Zealots to agitate for war and rebellion and to falsely predict victory and security

Those who dwell on the earth = the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem around 65-70 A.D. who mostly perished

The martyrs = narrowly, those who opposed the Zealots and paid for it with their lives, broadly, all the righteous blood shed on the earth since Abel

The little horn = the Man of Sin = Eleazar ben Simon?

The 1000 years = approx 30 A.D. to approx 65 A.D.

The little while = approx late 66-early 70 A.D. (42 months)

The defeat of Satan = early 70 A.D.

[Divine Insight]

I have an answer for this. If you accept Christ and agree to practice his ways And Gods, your fruit will be good works.

But you can't practice both the ways of Christ and the ways of God. You need to choose which one to follow. God commands that you must stone sinners to death including adulterers. Jesus commands that you are not to cast the first stone. So you need to make a choice of which one you will obey.

Also, God demands that you seek an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and take no pity. God also demands that you must do this to remove the evil from around you.
Christ rejects this directly, and teaches that you should instead turn the other cheek and not resist evil.

So you can't obey both Christ and God, you need to chose which one you will obey.

[brianbbs67]

I have an answer for this. If you accept Christ and agree to practice his ways And Gods, your fruit will be good works.

But you can't practice both the ways of Christ and the ways of God. You need to choose which one to follow. God commands that you must stone sinners to death including adulterers. Jesus commands that you are not to cast the first stone. So you need to make a choice of which one you will obey.

Also, God demands that you seek an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and take no pity. God also demands that you must do this to remove the evil from around you.
Christ rejects this directly, and teaches that you should instead turn the other cheek and not resist evil.

So you can't obey both Christ and God, you need to chose which one you will obey.

They are the same to me(in message ). What about "reject devil and he will flee from you"?

I try my best to obey God as Christ instructed.

Moses gave forth the command to have no pity as his time grew short at 120 and he knew he was leaving. The expounding of Mosaic law is what the Christ complained and condemned the most. The Israelites had legislated themselves into a very narrow box(and all fell short). Not at God's urging, but there own. For governing and material reasons, I assume.

[Divine Insight]

Moses gave forth the command to have no pity as his time grew short at 120 and he knew he was leaving. The expounding of Mosaic law is what the Christ complained and condemned the most. The Israelites had legislated themselves into a very narrow box(and all fell short). Not at God's urging, but there own. For governing and material reasons, I assume.

This is a great apology. And one that I would have loved to support back when I was apologizing for Christianity. The problem is that this apology doesn't hold up. I learned this immediately from fundamentalist Christians.

We simply can't have Jesus disagreeing with Mosaic law, unless we want to toss both Moses and Matthew out as being an unreliable Scriptures. Matthew has Jesus proclaiming that he did not come to change the law, and that not one jot or one tittle shall pass from law.

So therein lies the problem.

You see, if Jesus had either said that he came to change the law, or at least said that the written laws were actually wrong, then your apology could work. But unfortunately according to Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus did not allow for that option.

Also, we need to understand why it was important for Matthew to put this in the Gospels in the first place. You see the Jews believed that Mosaic law came from God. In order for your apology to hold, Mosaic law would need to be renounced as not being "God's Law" but being a laws made up by Moses. And that would put a huge dent in the foundations of Judaism. In fact, it would rip the carpet right out from under Judaism.

Also, once we chose to start claiming that books written by Moses weren't actual instructions and commandments from "God", then we can no longer think of the "Father God" as being the God described in those Old Testament books. So to try to support an apology like this becomes an extreme can of worms that ends up being impossible to support.

It's a nice try, but after serious scrutiny it's just not a viable apology.

[Monta]

By grace, a gift. Mouthing off by mouth 'I believe' means nothing.
Genuine faith in Christ means to believe that he is Divine truth. As such, good works will naturally follow and this is confirmation of our faith.

But then you still have men earning their own salvation by doing good works simply because they believe in Christ. I don't see how that would resolve the problem.

Born again, new creation in Christ Jesus, this is reality.

People change and you do good out of love towards God and your neighbor.

It is non believers who are not quite sure and thinking in case there is God
doing some good works will be in their favor.

[JehovahsWitness]

Many questions are asked about this chapter of Revelation, and answers given can differ widely.

Here are just a few questions, for example.

1. How does the chapter fit in with the theme of the whole book?

The book of Revelation explains the main events that will happend in "The Lord's day" which began in 1914 onwards through to more than a thousand years into the future from that date. Chapter 20 presents a picture of God's government of 144,000 under Jesus and what it will do for mankind. It is this governmental rule or KINGDOM for which Jesus taught his followers to pray "Let your kingdom Come, let your will be done on earth..."


5. What is the nature of the reign "with Christ" that is mentioned?

Jesus will rule as king over this our planet earth, transforming it into a garden like paradise for all its inhabitants. All human governments will be destroyed and replaced with Jesus' own government of himself and 144,000 co-rulers. It is these co-rulers that are spoken of in Revelation 20:6 as being "kings" that reign with Christ. They will rule over the domain of the earth for 1000 years.

"Thy Kingdom come" Christ's government of 144,000 co-rulers will solve earth's problems


RELATED POST What is God's Kingdom and what will it do?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 124#890124

2. The "thousand years", if literal, are for what purpose?

The above government will rule from heaven over this our planet earth for a literal period of 1000 years of peace. This period (also called the "millenium" rule or "judgment day") will be a wonderful period of peace and prosperirty for all earths inhabitants. During this 1000 years the benefit of Jesus ransom sacrifice will fully be applied and obedient mankind will be guided back to perfect health and sinlessness.




3. "the first resurrection" describes what, and takes place when?

The "first resurrection" is the resurrection of those 144,000 born again Christians to rule with Jesus in his heavenly government (see picture #1 above). These men and women are resurrected or brought back to life, not as humans but as spirits to live in heaven, effectively being "government ministers" in God's Kingdom. They make up the "new heavens" (meaning the new heavenly government) the bible speaks about. This first resurrection began in 1914 and has been ongoing since then. It will end when the last member dies and takes his place as a "king and Priest" in the heavenly government (see Rev 20:5, 6)

Born again Christians, past and present - the first resurrection for people who will rule with Jesus



RELATED POSTS

Is the book of Revelation symolic in nature?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 74#p881674

Is there hope for the dead?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -the-dead/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN THE DEVIL , , THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

[JehovahsWitness]

4. "the lake of fire" is what, and how is it related to "the second death"?

The "lake of fire" and "the second death" are synonyms. They symbolize absolute and complete destruction without any hope of resurrection or returning to continuing functioning in any way. Satan, the demons and even "death" itself will eventually be thrown into this lake, meaning they will be destroyed forever.


RELATED POSTS

What is the lake of fire?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 866#337866

[brianbbs67]

Moses gave forth the command to have no pity as his time grew short at 120 and he knew he was leaving. The expounding of Mosaic law is what the Christ complained and condemned the most. The Israelites had legislated themselves into a very narrow box(and all fell short). Not at God's urging, but there own. For governing and material reasons, I assume.

This is a great apology. And one that I would have loved to support back when I was apologizing for Christianity. The problem is that this apology doesn't hold up. I learned this immediately from fundamentalist Christians.

We simply can't have Jesus disagreeing with Mosaic law, unless we want to toss both Moses and Matthew out as being an unreliable Scriptures. Matthew has Jesus proclaiming that he did not come to change the law, and that not one jot or one tittle shall pass from law.

So therein lies the problem.

You see, if Jesus had either said that he came to change the law, or at least said that the written laws were actually wrong, then your apology could work. But unfortunately according to Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus did not allow for that option.

Also, we need to understand why it was important for Matthew to put this in the Gospels in the first place. You see the Jews believed that Mosaic law came from God. In order for your apology to hold, Mosaic law would need to be renounced as not being "God's Law" but being a laws made up by Moses. And that would put a huge dent in the foundations of Judaism. In fact, it would rip the carpet right out from under Judaism.

Also, once we chose to start claiming that books written by Moses weren't actual instructions and commandments from "God", then we can no longer think of the "Father God" as being the God described in those Old Testament books. So to try to support an apology like this becomes an extreme can of worms that ends up being impossible to support.

It's a nice try, but after serious scrutiny it's just not a viable apology.

I think it still does. There were 613 Mitzvahs that God supposedly gave to moses. Jesus complained about the extra restrictions and additions to the law that took place over time. I believe the Law Jesus referred to was the original, not the contemporary of his day.

[bluethread]

Yes some of these (the second resurrection people) are granted life based upon their works; which works prove that the law (of love) is written upon their hearts.

I don't intend on getting into the weeds on this thread, primarily because I do not think that the purpose of the revelation is a code book on when and where to build bomb shelter, but to encourage Adonai's people to live according to Adonai's ways. In that vein, let me just not that HaTorah is the law of love. The second greatest commandment is a Torah commandment. Also, the means of salvation, i.e. atonement based on recognition, restitution and reformation as a means of grace, is also in HaTorah.