Sin and Intent

[McCulloch]

... Maybe God sees it differently. ... Some of the best intentions pave the road to hell.

Some Christians claim that since God knows everyone's heart, it is the intent to sin that is wrong not the particular acts of sinning.

Sure, but those are willful acts like white lies or stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Just keep in mind that God is good and a perfect judge. Unlike a human judge He knows everything about you and your son and the circumstances of your life.

Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?

[McCulloch]

I would say a person need not show intent to be morally culpable and also punishable. Some modern day examples:

*A drunk driver does not intend to kill another driver, yet is punished for such an action.

Based on the principle that everyone knows or should know that it is dangerous to drink after drinking.

*Third degree murder includes murder without the intent to kill, but the murderer still goes to jail.

But the criminal in this case did intend harm. That is what he is being punished for. If the alleged criminal did not intend any harm or deliberate negligence, he is free.

*A factory that emits an excess amount of pollution unintentionally still pays a fine.

Based on the principle that they should have known that the pollution was being created.

I am not sure how citing human examples proves or disproves any principle of divine justice.

[Confused]

No, from what I see, Jesus didn't reject the Pharsiee's teachings.. he rejected their behavior.

Really ? then why is my belief called Christianity instead of judaism ? Same book two different religions. Why? B/c the interpretations of christianity is DIFFERENT from that of judaism.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Most of the teachings of Jesus ARE the teachings of the Pharisee's.

Is that why christians do not circumcise ? Is that why christians eat pork ? Is that why christians worship Jesus Christ but jews deny Him? Is that why christians believe in God the Holy Spirit but the jews have no idea? Excuse me, the teachings of Jesus are FAR from the teachings of judaism.

And, of course, Noah was before Abraham's time, so there were no Jews per say at that point.. You really should read your bible more.

Huh ? … no jews per se at that point ? lol …..wasn’t adam a jew? How about this – adam … enoch … noah /shem … abraham ? Hmm … I wonder who should read ‘more’ before they challenge another.

It seems to me that Christianity gets more of their concept from Sin from Saint Augustine than Jesus.

Really ? what else do you believe ? Who made augustine a ‘saint’? Jesus or man ? Forget judaism, return to Christ.

Do you truly believe what you write? Scary. If you don't believe that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism then you failed ancient history.

[topaz]

Do you truly believe what you write? Scary. If you don't believe that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism then you failed ancient history.

Absolutely.

You say things that I don’t even think of. I did not speak of the root of christianity. I expose the DIFFERENCES between these two religions which emanate from the same source book – the Holy Bible. You’ve got lots to learn.

Judaism denies Christ as the Messiah. God denies all judaists. Don’t waste your time in that path. Life is too short to make repeated mistakes.

[Confused]

Do you truly believe what you write? Scary. If you don't believe that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism then you failed ancient history.

Absolutely.

You say things that I don’t even think of. I did not speak of the root of christianity. I expose the DIFFERENCES between these two religions which emanate from the same source book – the Holy Bible. You’ve got lots to learn.

Judaism denies Christ as the Messiah. God denies all judaists. Don’t waste your time in that path. Life is too short to make repeated mistakes.

Get your quotes right. I wrote that, not Goat. Funny how you keep repeating your mistakes. You aren't worth my time.

[Goat]

Do you truly believe what you write? Scary. If you don't believe that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism then you failed ancient history.

Absolutely.

You say things that I don’t even think of. I did not speak of the root of christianity. I expose the DIFFERENCES between these two religions which emanate from the same source book – the Holy Bible. You’ve got lots to learn.

Judaism denies Christ as the Messiah. God denies all judaists. Don’t waste your time in that path. Life is too short to make repeated mistakes.

You seem to know a lot about what god 'Denies'. That is more than a bit arrogant of you. Since you are totally missing the point of what most of the New Testamant says Jesus preaches, and you definately miss the point about God, I am not too worried about your opinion. I thank God that God is not like how you promote him.

[Confused]

Back to the thread. I have heard much from the OT about unintentional vs intentional sin, my question is what does the NT say. Can one who is unable to distinguish evil from good be held culpable in the eyes of God or does he make exceptions on the basis that he formed that life and that lifes mentality knowing they wouldn't be able to distinguish good from sin?

[Confused]

... Maybe God sees it differently. ... Some of the best intentions pave the road to hell.

Some Christians claim that since God knows everyone's heart, it is the intent to sin that is wrong not the particular acts of sinning.

Sure, but those are willful acts like white lies or stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Just keep in mind that God is good and a perfect judge. Unlike a human judge He knows everything about you and your son and the circumstances of your life.

Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?

McCulloch, you will be so excited. I was reading the OT (skipping Leviticus completely) and found out how we can save our children. First off, according to the Bible, it is possible to sin unintentionally. Whats more, there is a way to make atonement for it. Numbers 15:27-29But if one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the Lord for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is native born Israelite or an alien.

Do you know what this means. All we have to do is stay under the radar of the animal rights groups activists, find some willing priests, start to raise a lot of female goats and continue to sacrifice them for each unintentional sin our sons commit. This is proof that one can sin unintentionally and that the one who sinned doesn't necessarily need to be the one to offer atonement, a priest can do it since our children lack the ability to understand the "sin" and the "atonement". Our children can be saved. Isn't that exciting???? So what do you think. I don't have enough land in Florida to raise these goats, but in Alaska my family does. What about in Canada? Do you suppose Otseng might know a preist that may carry out the ritual??

I know, I am being sarcastic and I shouldn't be, but I am grasping at straws here. What if I am wrong and their is a God. Have I doomed my son to hell? If this is all it takes, would it be worth trying or do we have to have faith. I don't see why, the priest is the one offering the sacrifice, he obviously has faith. So theoretically, it could work.

[McCulloch]

I hate to rain on your but there are qualifications for the priests for these sacrifices that are different than the qualifications for priests in any Christian denomination.

Be strong. It looks as if you are succumbing to a form of Pascal's wager here.

[Confused]

I hate to rain on your but there are qualifications for the priests for these sacrifices that are different than the qualifications for priests in any Christian denomination.

Be strong. It looks as if you are succumbing to a form of Pascal's wager here.

Don't worry, my faith factor just moved about 3/4 way towards atheism. Long story, but needless to say, my fine thread of hope is stretched as tenuous as one can be. I hate to say it, but I do beleive that there is no God. And I think that the surrounding churches here have provided the proof. They claim so many things, but put a child like alan in front of them and their response is the same, "I deeply apologize for the pain you must be enduring, but we can't minister to your son". Hypocrisy. Just once I would like to actually see a Christian practice what they preach. That isn't fair. Jester, Micalta, and a few others have to a certain degree, but as far a I am concerned, their faith is endearing, but wasted.

[Confused]

I hate to rain on your but there are qualifications for the priests for these sacrifices that are different than the qualifications for priests in any Christian denomination.

Be strong. It looks as if you are succumbing to a form of Pascal's wager here.

Party pooper!!