JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 319 by Elijah John]

True about the caps. However, I view that as a rather minor point.
Yes, many people may be confused about God's name, given the Bible translations they have.

Scholars are pretty sure that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation, has the highest probability of being correct.

Yes, other pronunciations have been argued for. However, they have generally been shot down for various reasons, so the majority of scholars stick with Yahweh.
Sorry, but I'm interested only in translation issues. Really didn't have time to read or think over your other comments on the NT.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 319 by Elijah John]

True about the caps. However, I view that as a rather minor point.
Yes, many people may be confused about God's name, given the Bible translations they have.

Scholars are pretty sure that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation, has the highest probability of being correct.

Yes, other pronunciations have been argued for. However, they have generally been shot down for various reasons, so the majority of scholars stick with Yahweh.
Sorry, but I'm interested only in translation issues. Really didn't have time to read or think over your other comments on the NT.

The caps isn't a minor point when you consider that because various versions eliminate the Tetragrammaton and replace it with "LORD" people are confused as to whom is really being referred to. That's MAJOR.

I wonder when people are going to get it that JWs don't care how you pronounce the Divine Name? "Yahweh" is fine.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 294 by Elijah John]

Jehovah and Y' hovah are totally inaccurate translations. The ancient tradition was that you were to never utter God's personal name. Hence, for YHWH, the vowel indicators of Adonai were written in, which lead to the mistranslation of Jehovah. It is not unusual today to find both gentiles and Jews who feel we should honor the ancient tradition, by not even writing YHWH, let alone uttering it.

Ironic then, that King David implored the reader/hearer to "Give thanks to the name of YHVH", "call on the name of YHVH" "Praise the name of YHVH"...etc, etc, etc. One cannot do those things if one cannot pronounce the Name.

It is refreshing to see that more and more Evangelicals are rediscovering the power and majesty of the Divine Name, and all it's compound variations and many applications.

And as you mayknow, every time a believer (Jew or Gentile) utters the word of praise, "Hallelujah" they are pronouncing an abbreviated version of the Divine name, "Jah" or "Yah".

Same with anyone who mentions the heroes of the Hebrew Bible, such as "EliJah" (my God is YHVH) "Joel" (YHVH is God), "Joshua" (YHVH is salvation), etc, etc.

And if the Divine name was never meant to be pronounced, why have a major Commanment prohibiing it's MISuse? Notice the Commandment does not state "Though shalt not take the name of YHVH thy God...at all." No, the Commandment reads "in vain".

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 321 by onewithhim]

Then why did they render incorrectly as "Jehovah" and insist is so labeling themselves?

Also, I don't follow you about all this confusion you talk about. What confusion? Who are the confused? Laity who maybe have no real education in biblical studies? Who? Certainly presenting a Bible that incorrectly translates God's name but add to the confusion that already exists. It would seem the Society is a big part of this confusion.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 322 by Elijah John]

Historically what happened was that at first it was OK to utter God's name. Later, however, there was a major change in attitude, the argument advanced that you shouldn't, that this actually did have to do with the Ten Commandments. By uttering God's name, you brought God into action. Hence, don't utter it, or something really horrendous may happen right on the spot. Hence, the vowel indicators for Adonai were written about YHWH, which led later sources to come up with Jehovah. Incidentally, you will find many pious Jews, scholars and otherwise, who, in honor of the later tradition, write G_d instead of God.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 322 by Elijah John]

Historically what happened was that at first it was OK to utter God's name. Later, however, there was a major change in attitude, the argument advanced that you shouldn't, that this actually did have to do with the Ten Commandments.

Yes, the evidence that it was supposed to have been reverently pronounced is all over the Hebrew Bible...the subsequent Rabbinic prohibition was out of an abundance of caution. Building a "fence around the Torah". If one never pronounces the Name, (the reasoning goes) one can never misuse the Name.

By uttering God's name, you brought God into action.

Yes, and that is an imperative. A one word invocation that gets the attention of the Living God. But that is not necessarily a bad thing, quite the contrary, for "whosoever shall call upon the name of YHVH will be delivered/saved".

And in Exodus, YHVH tells Moses that His name shall be an invocation for "all generations". "Memorial" or "invocation" depending on which version is read.

Hence, don't utter it, or something really horrendous may happen right on the spot

That was the superstition. And perhaps the case if uttered irrevently. Hence the Commandment not to utter it in vain.

Hence, the vowel indicators for Adonai were written about YHWH, which led later sources to come up with Jehovah.

Yes, I understand that. But still, not far off. Something about the German "J" whereas the Hebrew is "Y". (Yod). The adaptation of the vowels from "Adonai" still fit, more or less.

Incidentally, you will find many pious Jews, scholars and otherwise, who, in honor of the later tradition, write G_d instead of God.

I've seen the word "God" written that way many times in books and articles by Jewish authors. Again, the abundance of caution. One can hardly fault their intentions, but there comes a point where the phrase "fear of the LORD" is taken to extremes.

I guess my main point is that JW's should not be beat up even if they do not get the exact pronunciation. I would think God understands and is delighted with their attempt to put His Name back in reverent usage.

Other translation and alteration issues with the NWT perhaps, but remember, even some non-JW versions of the Bible, such as the American Standard Version, use "Jehovah" all throughout the "Old" Testament. And the ASV is a revision of the King James.

[Elijah John]

You can throw negative comments around at will and hopefully you won't get yourself banned, ..

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[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 325 by Elijah John]

Well, superstition or not, that is what happened.
The sources for the Pentateuch are abbreviated, J,E,D,P. "J" got in there because Germans pronounce J with a Y sound. Since they were pioneers in the Higher Criticism, J has stood, in English, as the abbreviation for the one source.

It's not a matter with me of people getting beat up, it is a matter of an accurate translation. And no, "Jehovah" is not accurate. Insofar as the KJV did that, as well as others, they are not at all accurate. And, of course, there are other problems with the NWT, such as their rendering of John 1:1, plus inserting "Lord Jehovah" 239 times or so into the NT, where it definitely does not belong. I am critical of any and al translations. However, the NWT is a particularly bad one. In scholarly work in theology, It's OK to use whatever translation if you just want to cite a couple passages to add to your expose or make your point. However, in serious biblical studies, you really get it if you don't refer back to the original.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 325 by Elijah John]

Well, superstition or not, that is what happened.
The sources for the Pentateuch are abbreviated, J,E,D,P. "J" got in there because Germans pronounce J with a Y sound. Since they were pioneers in the Higher Criticism, J has stood, in English, as the abbreviation for the one source.

It's not a matter with me of people getting beat up, it is a matter of an accurate translation. And no, "Jehovah" is not accurate. Insofar as the KJV did that, as well as others, they are not at all accurate. And, of course, there are other problems with the NWT, such as their rendering of John 1:1, plus inserting "Lord Jehovah" 239 times or so into the NT, where it definitely does not belong. I am critical of any and al translations. However, the NWT is a particularly bad one. In scholarly work in theology, It's OK to use whatever translation if you just want to cite a couple passages to add to your expose or make your point. However, in serious biblical studies, you really get it if you don't refer back to the original.

That makes sense, and I agree that the NWT has more than a few problems.

Would you say that it unreasonable to insert Tetragrammaton variations (Jehovah, or Yahweh) were NT characters quote an OT passage?

Or does the NWT go beyond even that?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 328 by Elijah John]

I think you should translate as literally and accurately as you can. At no point does the NT use "Lord Jehovah." Therefore, that expression should be completely left out. I would prefer translations used YHWH, Adonai, and Elohim exactly as the text does. However, as I said, I can swing with just "God" or the "LORD God," etc. The latter has been done by various translations simply to avoid all sorts of confusion, where laity might complain a new term such as Yahweh. Gee, what happened to "Jehovah," which we're all used to, etc. ? I know you think that adds to the confusion, but I don't. I've tried getting people in my theology classes to use YHWH and many just got all balled up on this issue. So, for the sake of peace with the public, the laity, which the translations are actually intended for, let's just stay neutral on our terms for God.