Are the Nativity Narratives really historical or allegorical

[polonius]

Since it is approaching Christmas, perhaps it would be a good time to review Matthew’s and Luke’s Nativity Narratives which comprise the first few chapters of their gospels.

We understand that the earliest stratas of Matthew, used by the very early Palestinian Ebionite Christians, who remained obedient to Mosaic Law, did not seem to include such a nativity narrative suggesting that it was added later (perhaps to both Matthew and Luke).

Each narrative describes the birth of Jesus but involves serious contradictions. Let’s begin with the date of Jesus’ birth as given by each.

[oldbadger]

The nativity tales as written in Matthew and Luke are in contention with each other, and within themselves, and with historical dates, and with historical facts.

The nativity tales as written in Matthew and Luke are not in contention with each other and contain no internal contradictions, they do not conflict with any historical dates since they provide few dates if any dates and the historical context provided do not conflict with any proven historical facts.

When there is a conflict between what historians suppose and biblical detail, which is rare, the bible is right.

JW

Sadly none of the above is correct.
Sadly you did not acknowledge that you misquoted me.

[JehovahsWitness]

The nativity tales as written in Matthew and Luke are in contention with each other, and within themselves, and with historical dates, and with historical facts.

The nativity tales as written in Matthew and Luke are not in contention with each other and contain no internal contradictions, they do not conflict with any historical dates since they provide few dates if any dates and the historical context provided do not conflict with any proven historical facts.

When there is a conflict between what historians suppose and biblical detail, which is rare, the bible is right.

JW

Sadly none of the above is correct.

Can you prove that none of the above is correct using biblical references?

JW

[oldbadger]

Can you prove that none of the above is correct using biblical references?

JW

I can show many problems with the nativity stories.... but....
.......You hsve ignored my reqiest for an acknowledgement twice now.
You misquoted me and then did not correct yourself.
I won't be responding to you any more.

[marakorpa]

[JehovahsWitness]

I can show many problems with the nativity stories....

There are no real problems with the nativity stories - any perceived problems arise from an improper reading. The gospel accounts do not all resport the same aspects nor do they all concentrate on the same events but they are in no way contradictory.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[JehovahsWitness]

Did john know he was a relative of Jesus?

Probably. In any case Mary visited Elizabeth during their pregancy and there is no reason to believe the mothers kept the fact that they were relatives secret.

JW

[oldbadger]

A name first mentioned by the prophet Isaiah (7:14; 8:8) during the reign of Ahaz (761-746 B.C.E.). In Matthew 1:23, the only other occurrence, Immanuel is a name-title applied to Christ the Messiah.

But that was not his name.
Nor was his name 'Jesus'; Yeshua BarYosef never heard the name 'Jesus' in his lifetime.
Yeshua often referred to himself as 'Son of Man' but that was a common term, such as we might use 'this guy' in this age.

[polonius]

Another legend in the Nativity Narratives is King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the Holy Innocents, all male children two years of age and younger, in an attempt to destroy the newly born Messiah. This legend in not in Luke’s gospel (which is consistent with Jesus’ 6 AD birth since Herod would have been dead for ten years.) It is not mentioned in any other writings of that period such as the histories of Josephus.

An estimate of the number massacred varies greatly, see Raymond Brown, The Birth of the Messiah. A commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, page 205 ,1993 New York, Double Day, 1993. The Martyrdom of Matthew states 3000, a Byzantine liturgy reports 14,000, and a Syrian tradition reports 64, 000.

However, Albright (Anchor Bible Series) reports that the population of Bethlehem at the time would have been about 300 people so the maximum number of male age two and younger would have been about 6 or 7.

See http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... ction.aspx

[polonius]

Did john know he was a relative of Jesus?

Probably. In any case Mary visited Elizabeth during THEIR pregancy and there is no reason to believe the mothers kept the fact that they were relatives secret.

JW

RESPONSE: You raised an interesting point but didn't see where it led. WHEN did this event occur, ie. the pregnancies of both Mary and Elizabeth? Were these overlapping in time?