Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's fall

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2Dbunk
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Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's fall

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Post by 2Dbunk »

Are Christian apologies in order for today's state of American Democracy
Edward Gibbon in his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire� (1776) hints that Constantine’s elevation of Christianity in the 4th century of Rome aided in the decline of that civilization.
"The theologian may indulge the pleasing task of describing Religion as she descended from Heaven, arrayed in her native purity. A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian. He must discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption which she contracted in a long residence upon Earth, among a weak and degenerate race of beings."

"... life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or least the abuse, of Christianity had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire. The clergy successfully preached the doctrines of patience and pusillanimity; the active virtues of society were discouraged; and the last remains of military spirit were buried in the cloister. A large portion of public and private wealth were consecrated to the specious demands of charity and devotion, and the soldiers' pay was lavished on the useless multitudes of both sexes who could only plead the merits of abstinence and chastity. Faith, zeal, curiosity, and more earthly passions of malice and ambition kindled the flame of theological factions, whose conflicts were sometimes bloody and always implacable; the attention of the emperors was diverted from camps to synods; the Roman world was oppressed by a new species of tyranny, and the persecuted sects became the secret enemies of the country."

The above passages are open to being contrasted with a previous, pagan, situation where "The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher; as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." Gibbon suggests that "Toleration produced not only a mutual indulgence, but even religious concord."

Two further volumes of the Decline and Fall, which bring to an end the period of the Western Empire (to about AD 480) appeared in April 1781 and these also sold well.
Gibbon summed up the Fall of the Roman Empire in the west as "the triumph of barbarism and religion!!!" from: age-of-the-sage.org
Compare this with today’s fall of American Democracy. The last truly great presidents that our nation has had are Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower. That leaves us a hiatus of more than half-of a century of mediocrity, the latter end of which has been the dismal parade of wannabes tilting for the office as the least dismal alternative. Why? In the last half century the religion card has been played more and more proving the emotional gullibility and ignorance of the masses.

Today, religion is a necessity for the office – but not just any religion. Protestant Christianity is preferred but Catholics are somewhat tolerated. Jews and Muslims need not apply, including all of the eastern “cults.� Atheists, since they are not banned from our shores, are still held in even less esteem. Again, why? Most if not every religious person is convinced that all other religions are dangerous, unholy cults; most Americans are of some form of nearly 40,000 varieties of Protestantism. Make any sense? Sure: “We are a Christiun nation – Atheists are evil ‘cause they don’t believe in God.�

I truly believe that Democracy is floundering because of the singular inanity of requiring Christianity as a pre-requisite for the office of the President. Look at today’s candidates: both professing deep religious faith (Christian of course) yet calling each other crooks and liars (and to a large intent, they are both right). Speaking as an Atheist, I KNOW my wife would be morally MUCH MORE SUPERIOR to either of them (she wouldn’t know the ins and outs of government like Hillary does nor the tax laws and their loopholes as Donald does).

I say morally because to be an atheist one must confront the god notion – a very brave and honest thing to do (honest in that my wife’s and my soul is on the block so to speak – we refuse to live a lie that “God� has control or can control our lives). For 17 years I have never caught her in a lie, nor has she found me in a lie (and we play board games every night). We do not lie or take advantage of our neighbors and our friends.

In short and in conclusion I think for the Democratic process to REALLY SUCCEED, THE RELIGION CARD MUST BE ELIMINATED FROM THE ELECTORAL DECK!!! Most of the founding fathers had no problem with the likes of Thomas Paine, as well as the free thinking of Madison and Jefferson, all stellar contributors to our founding. Let’s not sully it now so that we may continue in their spirit.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

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Post by 1213 »

Divine Insight wrote: It's a lie of the Trump campaign that Hillary wants to abolish the second amendment. All she wants to do is keep weapons out of the hands of the criminally insane.

Besides, you only have the right to bear arms. You don't have the right to shoot government authorities. So anyone who talks about using their guns to defend themselves against the government should have their guns taken away. That kind of talk should be sufficient evidence that the person is criminally insane and a threat to our peaceful democracy.
Don’t you see any problem in that? That is like saying, anyone who is against Nazi party and Hitler is criminally insane and should be without guns. I think the founders of USA were wise and knew well that power corrupts and that is why people should have ways to protect their freedom from tyrants. People who now want to destroy those protective measures may not be little hitlers, but they certainly are paving the way for the next one.

When democracy means two party system, with corrupted elite, I don’t see it valuable for people. And I hope people would rather appreciate freedom.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #12

Post by Zzyzx »

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[Replying to post 11 by 1213]

I somewhat agree. However, when the Constitution was written military armament was largely comparable to civilian arms – muzzle loading rifles and swords – with perhaps a few cannons in addition.

There were no automatic weapons / machine guns, no tanks, no ground-attack aircraft, etc.

Civilian arms now are vastly inferior to military weapons, so thoughts of an armed revolution against the government / military seem to me fanciful. A trusty 30-30 isn't very effective against a tank, APC, attack helicopter, or ground support aircraft (or drones) with bombs and rockets.

If the military revolted that might change the picture, but excepting that, mere numbers of civilian armed revolutionaries are not likely to accomplish much beyond martyrdom.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #13

Post by McCulloch »

[Replying to post 11 by 1213]

In 2008 and again in 2012, the fearsome spectre of Obama's minions coming to take away your guns was raised. It did not happen. It won't happen. It will be difficult for the American legislative system to put into place sensible restrictions and regulations for personal weapons. There are people that you will not allow to get on an airplane, because they may be dangerous, but you'll happily allow them to buy weapons.

As to having the constitutional right to protect yourself from tyrany, that is really funny. If your elected government were to become tyrannical, the weapons in the hands of private individuals would be no match to the weapons held by your military and your police forces.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #14

Post by McCulloch »

1213 wrote:When democracy means two party system, with corrupted elite, I don’t see it valuable for people. And I hope people would rather appreciate freedom.
I find it strange that Americans describe a two party democracy as having freedom. Every other democracy in the world has more active parties. Having the choice between two options is an absurd description of freedom. Canada has five parties with seats in the House of Commons. One of them is a separatist party. The U.K. has eleven.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #15

Post by Elijah John »

McCulloch wrote:
1213 wrote:When democracy means two party system, with corrupted elite, I don’t see it valuable for people. And I hope people would rather appreciate freedom.
I find it strange that Americans describe a two party democracy as having freedom. Every other democracy in the world has more active parties. Having the choice between two options is an absurd description of freedom. Canada has five parties with seats in the House of Commons. One of them is a separatist party. The U.K. has eleven.
We have other parties as well, such as the Green Party and the Libertarian party. As of now, they do not have much influence, but there is no law that mandates we have only two parties.

For all practical purposes though, it just seems to have worked out that way.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #16

Post by Zzyzx »

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[Replying to post 14 by McCulloch]

We US citizens are a strange people. We pride ourselves on being educated, economically advanced, technologically oriented – while the school system (erroneously called education) is falling farther behind world leaders every year, the economy increasingly favors the elite while middle classes shrink in numbers and in economic stability, and when many other nations are drawing even or taking the lead in technology.

Exacerbating the situation is our resistance to, and fear of, change – and fear of everything it seems. We stay with an election system that is antiquated and corruption prone – and a political system that is based upon money. We act as though we prize Victorian attitudes regarding sexuality – while being the porn capital of the world and glamorizing / fixating on sex.

We stay with policies that have been demonstrated to be total failures – such as the 'war on drugs', 'abstinence only programs', the 'war on terror' – even though they produce more and cheaper drugs (and more crime); more pregnancies among participants; and more terrorist activity respectively.

'We're number one' rings hollow when the number one applies largely to military spending and incarceration rates. We rank poorly (#20) compared to other nations in individual and economic liberty

Many long to return to 'the good old days' (that were not always as good as rosy memories might indicate). Perhaps they prefer the days of segregation, female disenfranchisement and subservience, sweat-shop labor conditions and child labor, and even greater religious influence in society.

The political system is broken – as demonstrated by the current presidential circus / fiasco – fact-free and lacking solid, untarnished candidates. Gerrymandering makes a joke of congressional district's, the two party system presents limited options, the electoral college is an abomination, the branches of government are intertwined and no longer 'checks and balances' (but largely partisan). Money rules everywhere, including academia.

Most once-great nations have declined into second or third class status due to 1) Internal corruption, and 2) Unsustainable expansionism / empire building.

There is no wake-up call. We're not going to change in positive directions.

Note: I am not a pessimist – but a realist.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #17

Post by Divine Insight »

1213 wrote: Don’t you see any problem in that? That is like saying, anyone who is against Nazi party and Hitler is criminally insane and should be without guns.
I don't think Americans have any justification in comparing the American government with Nazi Germany. Our democracy already has many built-in features to curb a potential wannbe world dictator. I will grant you though that our democratic system failed miserably in the case of George Bush invading Iraq. The problem there seems to have been with our failed CIA and intelligence gathering. The only reason many people in congress went along with the invasion of Iraq was because of false intelligence that claimed that Saddam was hiding huge stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. "Intelligence" that turned out to be false.

Armed civilians wouldn't have helped much in that case anyway. There were many Americans who were against invading Iraq, myself included.

What would American citizens do with their guns when it comes to disagreeing with the U.S. government?

As I stated earlier, any citizen rebellion against the government would most likely be highly divided between citizens anyway. And therefore any rebellion would most likely lead to a horrible civil war. And to make matters far worse, that civil war wouldn't even be as well organized as the North versus the South like it was in the first American Civil war. Instead, it would basically amount to inner city fighting between random citizens without any real indication of who's fighting for what. It would basically be a situation of "uncontrolled rioting", with most people fleeing the inner cities in an effort to avoid the whole disaster.

The idea of a successful civilian "takeover" of the government is simply absurd in today's age.

You'd be far better off just starting a political movement and work toward gaining power through the standard political channels of the democracy.

The idea that Americans need to have guns to protect themselves from the government is so out-dated, and outrageous that it's ridiculous to even suggest that such a tactic could ever work in today's day and age.

The second amendment should be abolished in terms of allowing citizens to be armed to protect themselves from the goverment.

Now, as far as citizens arming themselves for personal protection against criminals, that's a far more realistic argument. But they shouldn't object to having background checks, etc, for that purpose.

Why support that just anyone should be able to buy a gun - even the criminals themselves? How does that help protect us against criminals?

I'm all for responsible people carrying firearms. But I see no reason why just anyone can walk into a gun show and walk home with a deadly arsenal to be used to shoot up their workplace, school, restaurant, or church, just because they have a chip on their shoulder about something.

Why would you support that? :-k
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Post #18

Post by Divine Insight »

McCulloch wrote: As to having the constitutional right to protect yourself from tyrany, that is really funny. If your elected government were to become tyrannical, the weapons in the hands of private individuals would be no match to the weapons held by your military and your police forces.
@ McCulloch, I'm just curious. What are the gun laws in Canada?

Surely there are hunters in Canada? So I imagine that owning hunting guns is permissible.

How about self-protection firearms? Can a Canadian own and carry a firearm for self protection? And if so, how does this differ from the USA? Are there just far stronger laws concerning background checks and who can purchase a firearm in Canada?

Also are "Gun Shows" permissible in Canada? And can dealers sell guns at "Gun Shows"? It is just that there are longer waiting periods and more elaborate background checking?

I'm totally clueless on what the gun laws are in Canada. Does Canada also have restrictions on what type of guns can be sold/owned. Would an AR-15 semi automatic be legal to own in Canada, for example?
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #19

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]

World Powers come and go, there is as scripture says, nothing new under the sun. Jehovah's Witnesses however believe that the bible identifies the Anglo-American world power as the last of the great powers and that it will fall only to God's kingdom (a theocracy), so for now, it seems safe to say that America as a world power will remain. For at least today. Tomorrow will have its own surprises.



I thought JWs were more far-seeing than that. We tend to see our own culture and times as the be all and end all, but great cultures and powerful religions are swept away like dry grass in the fields. Christianity has had its varied say, split as it is into almost meaningless parts and it will vanish away in the future summers of change. So too will Islam while Judaism waits for its Messiah; but we will all be long asleep by then, some of us becoming spirits, perhaps, while others wait unconsciously for the trumpets of dies irae.

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Post #20

Post by JLB32168 »

Point of Information:

Constantine ruled from Constantinople/Istanbul. The Roman Empire didn't fall until 1453 and that wouldn't have occurred if the Crusaders hadn't sacked Constantinople in 1204. Edward Gibbon speaks almost exclusively of Western Europe. It's as if the East and its contributions to Russia disappeared for a millennium.

Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, - every country that uses the Cyrillic alphabet had no alphabet until the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire gave them one cir. AD 988. Consequently, Russia has no history or very little of it until AD 988.

Democracy if flailing because it regards everyone as equal - including intelligence - and allows dumb people to be in charge (not that everyone who occupies high offices is dumb, of course.) It's also founded upon the pursuit of happiness, that is, the pursuit of material wealth and that can be at the expense of the poor.

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