Forgiveness, a Christian calling card?

[achilles12604]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_ ... l_shooting

In years past, forgiveness was central to Christian lives. Lately, I am sensing much less forgiveness from the majority of Christains I know personally. They are becoming less forgiving in my opinion. However, as noted in this article and in other reports and interviews I have seen, the Amish are extreamly forgiving of a man that everyone else condemns, even after his actions hurt the Amish directly.

My questions are

1) Are Christian's becoming less forgiving as a group? Is there a trend happening here?

2) If yes, why? Why are some Christains becoming less forgiving while others are still amazing? What is the difference and what causes this?

[Confused]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_ ... l_shooting

In years past, forgiveness was central to Christian lives. Lately, I am sensing much less forgiveness from the majority of Christains I know personally. They are becoming less forgiving in my opinion. However, as noted in this article and in other reports and interviews I have seen, the Amish are extreamly forgiving of a man that everyone else condemns, even after his actions hurt the Amish directly.

My questions are

1) Are Christian's becoming less forgiving as a group? Is there a trend happening here?

2) If yes, why? Why are some Christains becoming less forgiving while others are still amazing? What is the difference and what causes this?

I find it amusing when those I know who say they are christians claim they have the most tolerant religion. They say they don't persecute anyone who doesn't follow their doctrine. But in fact they do, if you don't accept christ as your lord and savior, you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. That isn't tolerant. Sorry, a little off topic, but had to get it off my chest.

Back to the thread: It seems to me that christianity itself isn't so much as becoming less forgiving as they are trying to reinforce their place in religion. As science explains more and more, their is less mystery to it, so it is no longer gods punishment that causes an illness, earthquake, genetic defect etc... People are finding less cause to turn to god for answers and more to turn to science instead. This being said, christianity must now defend it's need to continue a presence in society. That is difficult to do when technology is forcing man to view things in such a logical sequence all the time. Instead of preaching of all the good still in the world, I now hear those christians I know focusing on the evil instead and using it to keep people in the faith or the fear of it to bring it people back into the faith. For example: Tina stopped going to church because her husband left her and she had to work 2 jobs to support her and her son. After 3 years, she is now back on her feet, only working one job, etc... Her best friend wants to know when she will get back into leading some prayer groups etc... Tina tells her that she just doens't have time for it right now. Her car is on it's last mile and she must work to save up to buy a new vehicle and her 6 year old son wants to play little league football so she has to save up for the fees, uniforms, and vacation days she will have to take to go to his games etc...2 weeks later, her car gets totaled by a drunk driver who hit it while it was in the parking lot of the grocery store and her son fractured his ankle so he can't play football. Her best friend now tells her that this is gods way of telling her that her decreased involvement in church functions and lack of faith in god to provide for her has allowed the evil of materialistic things interfere with her relationship with him and that she needs to remember that god should always come first. (this is a true story). While this is an extreme example, it is a good one. The church Tina attended held a prayer session that her best friend told her about in which they prayed that god would send Tina a sign to help her find her path back to him. I guess this was the sign.

Christianity doesn't seem to represent the humble christ that was depicted originally. Those that I know (don't get me wrong, they are still my friends, we just agree to disagree) seem to think that it is the way of their church or nothing at all. With so many branches of christianity now, it's become confusing, but to question any of it at all is bordering on heretic (notice history repeating itself ie:catholicism). Churches doors are locked, its impossible to actually find a preacher or priest outside of the 9-5 hours unless you already know one so recruiting new members is by word of mouth, so each member must present their church like it is better than all the others. I remember when I first reached out, it was 6 pm, I went to 5 different churches, I didn't want to speak to a preacher specifically, just bow my head (like I had seen done in movies) and ask for guidance. Not a singe one was unlocked, nor was their any direction on how to reach a pastor outside of the 9-5 hours. I was new to the area and didn't know anyone yet. I guess that should have been my first clue about questioning before believing. Wish I knew it then.

[achilles12604]

Back to the thread: It seems to me that christianity itself isn't so much as becoming less forgiving as they are trying to reinforce their place in religion.

I can agree with this but I suspect we have different reasons for why Christianity is reinforcing their place. I think it is simply because so many people are beginning to attack christianity on scholarly levels that scholars need to aid in defending it from misinformation.

As science explains more and more, their is less mystery to it, so it is no longer gods punishment that causes an illness, earthquake, genetic defect etc... People are finding less cause to turn to god for answers and more to turn to science instead. This being said, christianity must now defend it's need to continue a presence in society.

Yea I thought we would have a different reason as to why I am here. But you do make a true statement. Many people are beginning to rely on science instead of God. Yet I have noticed these same people running back to God when something happens in their lives they can't control.

This is EXACTLY what I think is the problem with the world today and exactly what causes the problem for God. If he is trying to get people to chose him, but they want to be their own God's, then science and technology give those people an excuse.

Other people use excuses too. They become angry or disappointed with religion so they attempt to find huge holes and problems with it. That way, they can justify leaving their beliefs behind on a "logical" level. This is why I think some of the non-theists will cling to Conspiracy theories and half baked "facts" rather than simply accepting what historians have discovered, and the implications there in.

That is difficult to do when technology is forcing man to view things in such a logical sequence all the time. Instead of preaching of all the good still in the world, I now hear those christians I know focusing on the evil instead and using it to keep people in the faith or the fear of it to bring it people back into the faith.

And I will battle Christians spreading misinformation just as vehimantly as I attack the non-theists ideas. Look at the mormon thread for an example.

For example: Tina stopped going to church because her husband left her and she had to work 2 jobs to support her and her son. After 3 years, she is now back on her feet, only working one job, etc... Her best friend wants to know when she will get back into leading some prayer groups etc... Tina tells her that she just doens't have time for it right now. Her car is on it's last mile and she must work to save up to buy a new vehicle and her 6 year old son wants to play little league football so she has to save up for the fees, uniforms, and vacation days she will have to take to go to his games etc...2 weeks later, her car gets totaled by a drunk driver who hit it while it was in the parking lot of the grocery store and her son fractured his ankle so he can't play football. Her best friend now tells her that this is gods way of telling her that her decreased involvement in church functions and lack of faith in god to provide for her has allowed the evil of materialistic things interfere with her relationship with him and that she needs to remember that god should always come first. (this is a true story). While this is an extreme example, it is a good one.

I may lose points on this in your opinion, but it is what I honestly think, so why lie?

I happen to see many instances where God does allow things like this and it brings about great growth for the person as well as directing them back to him. After all, history has shown that the times when religion is the strongest, and dark times. When things are good, no one seems to care, as you just pointed out above.

When things are hunky dory, everyone tells God "Go away . . . I;ve got this." But when things get rough many people go running back to God saying "Take care of my problems."

If you were God and people were doing this what would you do? I for one would get fed up and turn my back on them. Good thing I'm not God.

The church Tina attended held a prayer session that her best friend told her about in which they prayed that god would send Tina a sign to help her find her path back to him. I guess this was the sign.

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't usually try and interpret signs. They are like horroscopes. Anyone can fit them into any situation because they are really vague.

Christianity doesn't seem to represent the humble christ that was depicted originally. Those that I know (don't get me wrong, they are still my friends, we just agree to disagree) seem to think that it is the way of their church or nothing at all. With so many branches of christianity now, it's become confusing, but to question any of it at all is bordering on heretic (notice history repeating itself ie:catholicism). Churches doors are locked, its impossible to actually find a preacher or priest outside of the 9-5 hours unless you already know one so recruiting new members is by word of mouth, so each member must present their church like it is better than all the others. I remember when I first reached out, it was 6 pm, I went to 5 different churches, I didn't want to speak to a preacher specifically, just bow my head (like I had seen done in movies) and ask for guidance. Not a singe one was unlocked, nor was their any direction on how to reach a pastor outside of the 9-5 hours. I was new to the area and didn't know anyone yet. I guess that should have been my first clue about questioning before believing. Wish I knew it then.

You have two different points here.

1) Churches are becoming arrogant and exclusive of their own opinions and ignoring what scripture disagrees with them.

2) Churches are becoming businesses and losing sight of helping real people with real problems.

You are correct on both points. Hence, I don't go to church. I am still adamently christian though. I blame the people responsible . . . not God.

[Confused]

Yea I thought we would have a different reason as to why I am here. But you do make a true statement. Many people are beginning to rely on science instead of God. Yet I have noticed these same people running back to God when something happens in their lives they can't control.

This is EXACTLY what I think is the problem with the world today and exactly what causes the problem for God. If he is trying to get people to chose him, but they want to be their own God's, then science and technology give those people an excuse.

Funny how people thank god for their blessings but don't curse him for his challenges, they blame the devil. Then they turn to god to fix it. I notice many of these people who turn only to god in crisis. They are called hypocrites and of all the "christians" I know, it is no exaggeration when I say that at least 75% fall into this category.

For example: Tina stopped going to church because her husband left her and she had to work 2 jobs to support her and her son. After 3 years, she is now back on her feet, only working one job, etc... Her best friend wants to know when she will get back into leading some prayer groups etc... Tina tells her that she just doens't have time for it right now. Her car is on it's last mile and she must work to save up to buy a new vehicle and her 6 year old son wants to play little league football so she has to save up for the fees, uniforms, and vacation days she will have to take to go to his games etc...2 weeks later, her car gets totaled by a drunk driver who hit it while it was in the parking lot of the grocery store and her son fractured his ankle so he can't play football. Her best friend now tells her that this is gods way of telling her that her decreased involvement in church functions and lack of faith in god to provide for her has allowed the evil of materialistic things interfere with her relationship with him and that she needs to remember that god should always come first. (this is a true story). While this is an extreme example, it is a good one.

I may lose points on this in your opinion, but it is what I honestly think, so why lie?

I happen to see many instances where God does allow things like this and it brings about great growth for the person as well as directing them back to him. After all, history has shown that the times when religion is the strongest, and dark times. When things are good, no one seems to care, as you just pointed out above.

When things are hunky dory, everyone tells God "Go away . . . I;ve got this." But when things get rough many people go running back to God saying "Take care of my problems."

If you were God and people were doing this what would you do? I for one would get fed up and turn my back on them. Good thing I'm not God.

I don't think we differ so much on the opinion as the cause. I agree, people ignore god when things are good, then he puts that challenge up and they run to him to fix it. This I agree. Where I see the fallacy is in the fact that Tina worked her a@@ off to begin anew her life, then is criticized by the church when something bad happens in regards to it being her fault for "losing faith". That is using fear tactics to regain your "flock". Instead of being nonjudgemental and accepting, they blamed her and guilted her. I don't know if this "god" caused her problems, though she thinks so and is now devout again out of fear rather than faith, but when one strays from the "path", it should be celebrated when they find their way back, not criticized.

Christianity doesn't seem to represent the humble christ that was depicted originally. Those that I know (don't get me wrong, they are still my friends, we just agree to disagree) seem to think that it is the way of their church or nothing at all. With so many branches of christianity now, it's become confusing, but to question any of it at all is bordering on heretic (notice history repeating itself ie:catholicism). Churches doors are locked, its impossible to actually find a preacher or priest outside of the 9-5 hours unless you already know one so recruiting new members is by word of mouth, so each member must present their church like it is better than all the others. I remember when I first reached out, it was 6 pm, I went to 5 different churches, I didn't want to speak to a preacher specifically, just bow my head (like I had seen done in movies) and ask for guidance. Not a singe one was unlocked, nor was their any direction on how to reach a pastor outside of the 9-5 hours. I was new to the area and didn't know anyone yet. I guess that should have been my first clue about questioning before believing. Wish I knew it then.

You have two different points here.

1) Churches are becoming arrogant and exclusive of their own opinions and ignoring what scripture disagrees with them.

2) Churches are becoming businesses and losing sight of helping real people with real problems.

You are correct on both points. Hence, I don't go to church. I am still adamently christian though. I blame the people responsible . . . not God.

[/quote]

That's great for you, since you have already found your way, but for those of us in the dark, is it really any surprise why we are skeptical and lost????

[achilles12604]

Yea I thought we would have a different reason as to why I am here. But you do make a true statement. Many people are beginning to rely on science instead of God. Yet I have noticed these same people running back to God when something happens in their lives they can't control.

This is EXACTLY what I think is the problem with the world today and exactly what causes the problem for God. If he is trying to get people to chose him, but they want to be their own God's, then science and technology give those people an excuse.

Funny how people thank god for their blessings but don't curse him for his challenges, they blame the devil. Then they turn to god to fix it. I notice many of these people who turn only to god in crisis. They are called hypocrites and of all the "christians" I know, it is no exaggeration when I say that at least 75% fall into this category.

I don't doubt it at all.

For example: Tina stopped going to church because her husband left her and she had to work 2 jobs to support her and her son. After 3 years, she is now back on her feet, only working one job, etc... Her best friend wants to know when she will get back into leading some prayer groups etc... Tina tells her that she just doens't have time for it right now. Her car is on it's last mile and she must work to save up to buy a new vehicle and her 6 year old son wants to play little league football so she has to save up for the fees, uniforms, and vacation days she will have to take to go to his games etc...2 weeks later, her car gets totaled by a drunk driver who hit it while it was in the parking lot of the grocery store and her son fractured his ankle so he can't play football. Her best friend now tells her that this is gods way of telling her that her decreased involvement in church functions and lack of faith in god to provide for her has allowed the evil of materialistic things interfere with her relationship with him and that she needs to remember that god should always come first. (this is a true story). While this is an extreme example, it is a good one.

I may lose points on this in your opinion, but it is what I honestly think, so why lie?

I happen to see many instances where God does allow things like this and it brings about great growth for the person as well as directing them back to him. After all, history has shown that the times when religion is the strongest, and dark times. When things are good, no one seems to care, as you just pointed out above.

When things are hunky dory, everyone tells God "Go away . . . I;ve got this." But when things get rough many people go running back to God saying "Take care of my problems."

If you were God and people were doing this what would you do? I for one would get fed up and turn my back on them. Good thing I'm not God.

I don't think we differ so much on the opinion as the cause. I agree, people ignore god when things are good, then he puts that challenge up and they run to him to fix it. This I agree. Where I see the fallacy is in the fact that Tina worked her a@@ off to begin anew her life, then is criticized by the church when something bad happens in regards to it being her fault for "losing faith". That is using fear tactics to regain your "flock". Instead of being nonjudgemental and accepting, they blamed her and guilted her. I don't know if this "god" caused her problems, though she thinks so and is now devout again out of fear rather than faith, but when one strays from the "path", it should be celebrated when they find their way back, not criticized.

Absolutly again. You seem to harbor a great deal of personal animosity towards the church. I don't say that as a takedown, mearly an Observation. And it could very well be warranted. Lord knows that well meaning but stupid people do unsympathetic things.

Christianity doesn't seem to represent the humble christ that was depicted originally. Those that I know (don't get me wrong, they are still my friends, we just agree to disagree) seem to think that it is the way of their church or nothing at all. With so many branches of christianity now, it's become confusing, but to question any of it at all is bordering on heretic (notice history repeating itself ie:catholicism). Churches doors are locked, its impossible to actually find a preacher or priest outside of the 9-5 hours unless you already know one so recruiting new members is by word of mouth, so each member must present their church like it is better than all the others. I remember when I first reached out, it was 6 pm, I went to 5 different churches, I didn't want to speak to a preacher specifically, just bow my head (like I had seen done in movies) and ask for guidance. Not a singe one was unlocked, nor was their any direction on how to reach a pastor outside of the 9-5 hours. I was new to the area and didn't know anyone yet. I guess that should have been my first clue about questioning before believing. Wish I knew it then.

You have two different points here.

1) Churches are becoming arrogant and exclusive of their own opinions and ignoring what scripture disagrees with them.

2) Churches are becoming businesses and losing sight of helping real people with real problems.

You are correct on both points. Hence, I don't go to church. I am still adamently christian though. I blame the people responsible . . . not God.

That's great for you, since you have already found your way, but for those of us in the dark, is it really any surprise why we are skeptical and lost????

No. And I think I already stated that some non-theists have good reasons for thier viewpoints. I also stated that the single greatest cause of Atheism in the world today, are christians, who proclaim Jesus with their lips, and deny him by their lives. this is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable.

I hope you find some people who actually have Jesus as their God rather than themselves and their own agendas.

[topaz]

I find it amusing when those I know who say they are christians claim they have the most tolerant religion. They say they don't persecute anyone who doesn't follow their doctrine. But in fact they do, if you don't accept christ as your lord and savior, you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. That isn't tolerant. Sorry, a little off topic, but had to get it off my chest.

Huh ? you’re saying christians persecute you by sending you to hell ? LOL

God judges through Jesus Christ, His Son. Only they have the authority to send anyone anywhere. I suppose you call it persecution you when you litter and get a fine. Interesting.

People are finding less cause to turn to god for answers and more to turn to science instead. This being said, christianity must now defend it's need to continue a presence in society.

I am a christian and I don’t see a need to defend my religion. When you compare weak against strong, the weak need to defend against the strong. God, being absolute power, has no need to defend Himself nor His teachings called – christianity. No, we need no defence.

We all have a choice to believe anything we want. Unbelievers can change laws, can take our bibles away but they cannot take away our faith and the Holy Spirit from us. This is absolute strength.

That is difficult to do when technology is forcing man to view things in such a logical sequence all the time.

Imagine comparing God with technology and science.

Tina stopped going to church because her husband left her and she had to work 2 jobs … The church Tina attended held a prayer session that her best friend told her about in which they prayed that god would send Tina a sign to help her find her path back to him. I guess this was the sign.

God has a master plan, macro and micro plans so that every detail in a person’s life is covered long before the creature is even created. So, there is no such thing as coincidence. Yes, the car + the child’s accident is an obvious answer to the prayer for Tina.
Please share this with Tina. I will be praying for her, too.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

The above verse shows that divine intervention has taken place in Tina’s life. God wants Tina to trust Him and not worry about tomorrow. God knows her needs. God is going to show Tina how He can provide for her for the rest of her life if she puts her life in His hand and put aside time for Him.

We must not relegate God to the bottom of the TO DO LIST but put Him first. Abraham had to choose between the love for his son vs his love for God. As Abraham put God first, we must do the same. By doing this, we are placing things in the right perspective. By setting aside time for God, Tina may have less time to earn extra income yet her obedience will make her receive much more money than she could earn with the time spent working.

… so many branches of christianity …Churches doors are locked, its impossible to actually find a preacher or priest outside of the 9-5 …

Christianity is not about christians but about a relationship with Jesus Christ of Nazareth. You don’t need a preacher or a pastor or any such person to help you. You need only get down on your knees with a spirit of humility seeking God’s help. It is a direct relationship between a human and her Saviour. Try it. God is faithful to those who truly seek Him in prayer.

May God bless you and your family. May God also bless Tina and her family. In Christ, Amen.

[Confused]

I find it amusing when those I know who say they are christians claim they have the most tolerant religion. They say they don't persecute anyone who doesn't follow their doctrine. But in fact they do, if you don't accept christ as your lord and savior, you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. That isn't tolerant. Sorry, a little off topic, but had to get it off my chest.

Huh ? you’re saying christians persecute you by sending you to hell ? LOL

God judges through Jesus Christ, His Son. Only they have the authority to send anyone anywhere. I suppose you call it persecution you when you litter and get a fine. Interesting.

People are finding less cause to turn to god for answers and more to turn to science instead. This being said, christianity must now defend it's need to continue a presence in society.

I am a christian and I don’t see a need to defend my religion. When you compare weak against strong, the weak need to defend against the strong. God, being absolute power, has no need to defend Himself nor His teachings called – christianity. No, we need no defence.

We all have a choice to believe anything we want. Unbelievers can change laws, can take our bibles away but they cannot take away our faith and the Holy Spirit from us. This is absolute strength.

That is difficult to do when technology is forcing man to view things in such a logical sequence all the time.

Imagine comparing God with technology and science.

Tina stopped going to church because her husband left her and she had to work 2 jobs … The church Tina attended held a prayer session that her best friend told her about in which they prayed that god would send Tina a sign to help her find her path back to him. I guess this was the sign.

God has a master plan, macro and micro plans so that every detail in a person’s life is covered long before the creature is even created. So, there is no such thing as coincidence. Yes, the car + the child’s accident is an obvious answer to the prayer for Tina.
Please share this with Tina. I will be praying for her, too.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

The above verse shows that divine intervention has taken place in Tina’s life. God wants Tina to trust Him and not worry about tomorrow. God knows her needs. God is going to show Tina how He can provide for her for the rest of her life if she puts her life in His hand and put aside time for Him.

We must not relegate God to the bottom of the TO DO LIST but put Him first. Abraham had to choose between the love for his son vs his love for God. As Abraham put God first, we must do the same. By doing this, we are placing things in the right perspective. By setting aside time for God, Tina may have less time to earn extra income yet her obedience will make her receive much more money than she could earn with the time spent working.

… so many branches of christianity …Churches doors are locked, its impossible to actually find a preacher or priest outside of the 9-5 …

Christianity is not about christians but about a relationship with Jesus Christ of Nazareth. You don’t need a preacher or a pastor or any such person to help you. You need only get down on your knees with a spirit of humility seeking God’s help. It is a direct relationship between a human and her Saviour. Try it. God is faithful to those who truly seek Him in prayer.

May God bless you and your family. May God also bless Tina and her family. In Christ, Amen.

You are making a lot of assumption in your posts. Intitially, where did I say Christians persecute me or condemn me to hell? No, if I litter and get a fine, the punishment fits the crime. Dont compare natural with supernatural. It's apples and oranges.

In regards to God and science with technology. Lets look at the world 2100 year ago. Earthquakes were angry Gods, floods, disease, famine, hurricanes, death, etc.....all were angry Gods. Science and technology have resolved most of these issues. What two things can science not explain that we must turn to religion for? Where we came from, what happens after death. That is all I was saying. There has been a trend at least in the last 3 places I have lived that converting people out of fear is favored. It isn't that they believe in the the scripture etc.....It is that they figure "well, if I die and there is no God, nothing lost, but if I die and there exists a God, then I want heaven and not hell". That is all I meant in regards this issue. This is not what I would call a believer. It is a fear tactic. I doubt this is what God had in mind.

Save your prayers. Tina's son died 2 months later from complication of that car accident. She learned how he cared for her.

I am sorry, what kind of God puts a parent in a position that they much choose between Him and their child? The fact that He didn't take the child doesn't negate the challenge. Todays society sees that as barbaric, but then again, burning sheep in sacrifice for God would be barbaric too.

Topaz, I truly envy your faith. But as for your last suggestion, I have tried. If you havent' read enough of my testimony in other threads, then take my word for this: I have put my entire heart and soul into seeking Christ for help. What I found after several years was a feeling of rejection, like I was not good enough, because never once did I feel his presence. I tried. I sought. I haven't given up hope yet, but let me say that it gets less and less every day. But thank you for your blessings nonetheless.

[methylatedghosts]

This issue with Tina bugs me. What kind of friend tells you to put God first when you're struggling with everything else at the same time. What happened to just being supportive?

And just because she stopped going to church, doesn't mean she stopped having a relationship with God. Since when did a relationship with God equate with having to go to church. Who says she didn't pray and worship at home.

[Confused]

This issue with Tina bugs me. What kind of friend tells you to put God first when you're struggling with everything else at the same time. What happened to just being supportive?

And just because she stopped going to church, doesn't mean she stopped having a relationship with God. Since when did a relationship with God equate with having to go to church. Who says she didn't pray and worship at home.

I think the result of it spoke for itself. While I try to tell her not to let one group define them all, it seems to be more widespread now than ever. While I still consider a lot of Christians to be some of my best friends, I have to admit, they are predominately Christians of convenience. They do their duty when it serves their purpose individually or collectively. In other words, when it makes them look good, or when they have some guilt they feel the need to atone for. Now, I am not categorizing all Christians here, so don't take offense. Only the majority that I know and for those mathematicians out there, we will define majority as >80%.

[McCulloch]

This issue with Tina bugs me. What kind of friend tells you to put God first when you're struggling with everything else at the same time. What happened to just being supportive?

And just because she stopped going to church, doesn't mean she stopped having a relationship with God. Since when did a relationship with God equate with having to go to church. Who says she didn't pray and worship at home.

Perhaps she did, but that would be being disobedient to God. The God of the New Testament wants his faithful to gather together for support, teaching, edification, worship and discipleship. Now, if we are talking about a different god then anything goes.