Is it logical to support Israel?

[AdHoc]

Many christians support Israel perhaps because of the shared biblical history but in general, more and more non-christians today seem to see Israel in a negative light and want to withdraw support from that country.

Is it logical to support Israel as a secular free democracy in a part of the world where that isn't common?

Or is it more logical to not support Israel?

I would especially like to hear the reasons why some christians support Israel and why some non-theists don't support Israel.

[Paprika]

So I'm very uneducated in current affairs. I stated in my first post that I support Israel as a country.

But I don't know if I support us giving them 3 billion dollars a year as another poster said we do.

Why do we give them that money? What would happen if we didn't?

Lots of US foreign aid falls under military assistance, which generally means that the US taxpayer is paying for weapons which are to be given to other countries.

The military-industrial complex needs money, you know.

[AdHoc]

And so if you have an ally isn't it better to support them? Isn't Israel an ally in the war on terror?

What common enemy group are Israel and the US actively fighting against? 'Terror' doesn't quite cut it since it's hardly a monolithic whole; many terror groups will happily slaughter each other if given the opportunity to do so.

I don't understand why the enemy needs to be monlithic in order to be considered an enemy worthy of forming an alliance? Are heterogeneous enemies not dangerous or effective? I'd rather fight a lion than a swarm of various poisonous insects... As long as I had a rifle... If I only had my bare hands I'd rather fight neither.

*Sigh*

Name one single terror group that Israel and US are both actively fighting against. 'Terror' is not a monolithic whole as there are many terror groups with their own ideologies and aims, many opposed to each other. Conflation of them all as 'terror' might be good for making simplistic soundbites, but hardly facilitates any detailed analysis or understanding.

The war on terror is part hyperbole but also part literal war. I don't think I was specifically looking for a simplistic sound bite per se... it just naturally comes out that way. I'm not interested in doing a detailed analysis of all the terror groups that need to be prevented from bringing their evil machinations to life against either the US or Israel.
So I'll concede the point to you.

Well then: without using the premise of 'Israel is the US' ally', why should the US support Israel?

If they aren't our allies and if it isn't worth protecting a free secular democracy in the middle east then I guess there is no logical reason to support them.
It feels so much better once you give up hope.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 32 by AdHoc]

For Christians it is easy; Jesus said that by their deeds you shall know them.
Whether Balfour Declaration is right or wrong, we can debate for the next 100 years.
The Occupier has legal responsibilities. That Gaza is concentration camp is indisputable.
500 children killed and thousands suffering aftermath of the war does not rest easy with my Christian conscience.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 33 by Monta]

For Christians it is easy; Jesus said that by their deeds you shall know them.
Whether Balfour Declaration is right or wrong, we can debate for the next 100 years.
The Occupier has legal responsibilities. That Gaza is concentration camp is indisputable.
500 children killed and thousands suffering aftermath of the war does not rest easy with my Christian conscience.

Agreed.

What is needed is a grasp of the relevant history of this area, especially the last 100 years.

The Balfour Declaration was 1917, and in less than a decade the essay "The Iron Wall" was published.

It is required reading for anyone doing any research.

http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Is it logical to support Israel as a secular free democracy in a part of the world where that isn't common?

Where it's logical to do the right thing, yes.

I support the right of Israel to exist, and to exist specifically as a Jewish homeland if they so choose - as we note they have more'n just Jews in their midst.

In looking at the history of the Jews, we see 'em to be a kind people if unprovoked, only to have all manner of scorn and shame and violence put upon 'em in nigh on every town and village and state they ever entered.

We fought a war that was kinduva referendum on how we treat the Jews, and having won that war at the cost of so many lives, we do the dead, the wounded, and the survivors a dishonor by abandoning the Jews today.

Look into the history of how Palestinians / Muslims treated Jewish holy sites prior to the creation of Israel - and their belly-aching when their own sites are "blasphemed" or whatever upset they are. Look how they treat 'em today. See how the Israelis must contend with their civilians being targeted by folks who can only be considered evil incarnate. See how they must contend with indiscrimate rocket attacks. See how they must contend with tunnels being used to transport the means of Jewish destruction. See how they just want to be left the heck alone to do all their Jewey stuff.

If we abandon Israel, we abandon the Jews to the whims of those Muslim nations that have vowed to destroy Israel, the Jews, and anybody who supports 'em. We abandon Israel at risk of Muslim terrorists thinking their tactics effective, and who's next to be targeted. We abandon Israel and the Jews at the risk of our sense of right and wrong.

I'm an Israeli Jew! I'll always be an Israeli Jew as long as they're under threat of their very existence!

LONG LIVE ISRAEL!

LONG LIVE THE ISRAELIS!

[Monta]

[Replying to post 35 by JoeyKnothead]

"I'm an Israeli Jew! I'll always be an Israeli Jew as long as they're under threat of their very existence! "

Oh what a burden!

I'd rather be free.

For the record, Palestine has a right to exist.

[koko]

... non-christians today seem to see Israel in a negative light and want to withdraw support from that country.

Is it logical to support Israel as a secular free democracy in a part of the world where that isn't common?

Or is it more logical to not support Israel?

There is no logic to the notion of Christians supporting the Zionist state [note that Zionism is an ideology, not a religious notion].

As every Christian knows from reading the New Testament, the Promised Land was not yielded by Yahweh to Jews to the exclusion of anyone else. It was initially promised to Abraham's Seed in the Old Testament. Thereafter, the Promise was extended to all who recognize Yahshuah {more commonly known as Jesus} as Messiah. See Galatians 3:29. Significantly, Muslims recognize Issa (Arab word for Jesus) as Messiah which means that they, too, are heirs to the Promised Land.

The Zionist state readily grants citizenship to people who identify themselves as Jews. There is no biblical basis for exclusionism based on religion or racial/ethnic identity according to the New Testament as all are equal before God. For that reason, Christians cannot support the exclusivist Zionist state.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 36 by Monta]

For the record, Palestine has a right to exist.

Within what borders, do you think?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 37 by koko]

For that reason, Christians cannot support the exclusivist Zionist state.

What position then should Christians take toward Israel today?

Oppose it? Reject it? Ignore it? Or something else, do you think?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 39 by Checkpoint]


"What position then should Christians take toward Israel today?

Oppose it? Reject it? Ignore it? Or something else, do you think?"

Treat Israel as you would any other country.

I don't know another western country which treats people the way
Israel treats Palestinians.