A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

[marketandchurch]

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:

Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

[tam]

Most people just aren't listening to God's actual messenger; His actual Word. They are listening to the Bible, and/or to religion, and/or to various interpretations, and/or to various doctrines, etc. Within all of these, a person will find some truth (with which to mislead even the elect).

And whose fault is that? Christ wrote nothing down. You say the Bible doesn't always give the true picture, correctly pointing out the errors made by scribes. But from this flawed text we have the sole evidence of what Christ allegedly said, and you quote freely while advising us not to take the Bible too seriously. Shall we use the salt when it loses its flavour?

The bible is not the sole evidence we have of what Christ said. Christ Himself lives and speaks. His sheep hear His voice.


And yes, I am aware that many come and say that their theology is from Him. Hence, my Lord has taught me (and not just me but all of those who hear and listen to Him) to test the 'inspired expressions' (whether it is something I/we have heard personally, or something someone else claims to have heard), to see if what has been said is truly from Him. Because not every spirit (or inspired expression) is from Him.


It is from Him I learned what I shared on the topic of this thread (page 88).

But one will not know ALL truth anywhere - except in/from Christ. He does not teach false. He is the Truth. So why in the world would anyone (who claims to be following Christ and God) put anything or anyone or any of the many many so-called 'truths' out there, before Him?

But as I said, Christ does not write. He allows scribes to speak for him. This means that we have a huge industry trying to guess and interpret what he might have said, not knowing if the scribes erred. The Catholic Church took your advice and believed that Christ would not "let the gates of hell prevail against it." It is therefore logical that, when that church seeks clarification and direction, she has to believe Christ will infallibly grant it.

Your path is not as straight as you would have us believe.

[/quote]

He does not write; He speaks. He does not need scribes to speak for Him. He speaks Himself. He did not have to write anything down; He knew that He would still be living, teaching, speaking... and that His sheep would hear Him. We learn from Him.

The Catholic Church (claims to have) built their church on Peter, not upon Christ. But Christ is the Rock upon which His Church is built. My Lord praised Peter for the faith Peter placed in what God revealed to him: that Jaheshua is the Christ.

(Peter was not even the first disciple/apostle to recognize my Lord as the Messiah)

Regardless of how the Catholic Church may have started, they did not remain in Christ. That can be shown from their fruits alone. She certainly was not listening to Christ when she was killing 'heretics', or carrying out such deeds as the Inquisition, or raping children (by which I mean taking native children from their families and stripping them from their heritage, etc), or covering up any other heinous crimes against such children, which cost many of those children their faith.


There is no Christ in any of that. So you are quite correct when you note that their path is not a straight path.

But their path is not the path my Lord has led me to walk.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

There is no Christ in any of that. So you are quite correct when you note that their path is not a straight path.

But their path is not the path my Lord has led me to walk.

Your truth is every bit as valid and certainly more pleasing than mine. If your convictions lead you to the happy conclusion that your steps are supernaturally guided, my words are flakes of snow on the fire of your face.

I read p88; most of it is not at all new to me. My lost saints are all there. I have absolutely no quarrel with what you say; it would be like offering dust for diamonds.

Go well.

[onewithhim]

Most people just aren't listening to God's actual messenger; His actual Word. They are listening to the Bible, and/or to religion, and/or to various interpretations, and/or to various doctrines, etc. Within all of these, a person will find some truth (with which to mislead even the elect).

And whose fault is that? Christ wrote nothing down. You say the Bible doesn't always give the true picture, correctly pointing out the errors made by scribes. But from this flawed text we have the sole evidence of what Christ allegedly said, and you quote freely while advising us not to take the Bible too seriously. Shall we use the salt when it loses its flavour?

The bible is not the sole evidence we have of what Christ said. Christ Himself lives and speaks. His sheep hear His voice.


And yes, I am aware that many come and say that their theology is from Him. Hence, my Lord has taught me (and not just me but all of those who hear and listen to Him) to test the 'inspired expressions' (whether it is something I/we have heard personally, or something someone else claims to have heard), to see if what has been said is truly from Him. Because not every spirit (or inspired expression) is from Him.


It is from Him I learned what I shared on the topic of this thread (page 88).

But one will not know ALL truth anywhere - except in/from Christ. He does not teach false. He is the Truth. So why in the world would anyone (who claims to be following Christ and God) put anything or anyone or any of the many many so-called 'truths' out there, before Him?

But as I said, Christ does not write. He allows scribes to speak for him. This means that we have a huge industry trying to guess and interpret what he might have said, not knowing if the scribes erred. The Catholic Church took your advice and believed that Christ would not "let the gates of hell prevail against it." It is therefore logical that, when that church seeks clarification and direction, she has to believe Christ will infallibly grant it.

Your path is not as straight as you would have us believe.

He does not write; He speaks. He does not need scribes to speak for Him. He speaks Himself. He did not have to write anything down; He knew that He would still be living, teaching, speaking... and that His sheep would hear Him. We learn from Him.

The Catholic Church (claims to have) built their church on Peter, not upon Christ. But Christ is the Rock upon which His Church is built. My Lord praised Peter for the faith Peter placed in what God revealed to him: that Jaheshua is the Christ.

(Peter was not even the first disciple/apostle to recognize my Lord as the Messiah)

Regardless of how the Catholic Church may have started, they did not remain in Christ. That can be shown from their fruits alone. She certainly was not listening to Christ when she was killing 'heretics', or carrying out such deeds as the Inquisition, or raping children (by which I mean taking native children from their families and stripping them from their heritage, etc), or covering up any other heinous crimes against such children, which cost many of those children their faith.


There is no Christ in any of that. So you are quite correct when you note that their path is not a straight path.

But their path is not the path my Lord has led me to walk.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy[/quote]


onewithhim reponds:


If we depart from the Bible, we run into trouble. There are spirits abroad that present themselves as angels of light but are actually darkness. "Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2Corinthians11:14) The only way we can tell which spirits are working with us is if we are very familiar with the Bible.

I agree that the RCC has deviated from the true faith. How can we tell? Because the Bible tells us what a truly Christian church really is. It is quite clear. The RCC relies on church tradition almost completely, and most Catholics are not aware that the traditions conflict with the Bible.

Besides the Bible, how would we know anything about God or Christ? It truly is our guide.

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path....Sustain me according to Your word, that I may live." (Psalm 119:105, 116, NASB)

[tam]

Peace to you Onewithhim, (and to you also Marco),

[Replying to post 1097 by onewithhim]

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path....Sustain me according to Your word, that I may live." (Psalm 119:105, 116, NASB)

Christ IS God's Word. He is the Word of God. He is also the Light, and so the Light to our path.


He is also the Life. So that we live and are sustained by Him.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ (who is the Light, the Life, the Word),
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you Onewithhim, (and to you also Marco),

[Replying to post 1097 by onewithhim]

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path....Sustain me according to Your word, that I may live." (Psalm 119:105, 116, NASB)

Christ IS God's Word. He is the Word of God. He is also the Light, and so the Light to our path.


He is also the Life. So that we live and are sustained by Him.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ (who is the Light, the Life, the Word),
tammy

I agree. And we know about Christ and what he taught by familiarizing ourselves with the Bible. How else would we know?[/b]

[ttruscott]

The bible is not the sole evidence we have of what Christ said. Christ Himself lives and speaks. His sheep hear His voice.

If we depart from the Bible, we run into trouble. There are spirits abroad that present themselves as angels of light but are actually darkness. "Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2Corinthians11:14) The only way we can tell which spirits are working with us is if we are very familiar with the Bible.

I am with Tam on this one - we only can know the truth of what the bible means from the Spirit, all else is men's tradition and we separate the chaff from the wheat by faith, not proof.

I am Trinitarian, Tam is not.
I lean to everlasting banishment of living spirits in the outer darkness, Tam does not.
I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible as saying what the Holy Spirit wants it to say, Tam sees some of it as in error.

Yet we are both led by a Spirit in the name of Christ. Isn't that interesting? And the main thing I have noticed about those who solve such conundrums by believing the book over the Spirit are those who think that their understanding of the bible is pure truth and not just an interpretation...yet they have no reason to believe that except their tradition claims it.

Because of their interpretations of their religion's book and traditions, the Pharisees rejected the Messiah they were waiting for. They had no ear to hear his voice so missed the blessings of Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

[ttruscott]

I agree. And we know about Christ and what he taught by familiarizing ourselves with the Bible. How else would we know?

With every truth being liable to the twisted analysis of Satan, just the word itself is open to every variation of evil interpretation that can created by the crafty serpent. Only the voice of the Holy Spirit can separate the truth from the lies. Yet Satan also disguises himself as a angel of light/truth.

So,
- interpreting the book on tradition is untrustworthy without GOD's leading
- interpreting the voice of GOD is untrustworthy without the book

therefore I suggest we lean not to ourselves but ask for the Spirit of truth about the Book, that is, that every word of the Book/Spirit must be in accord with the Spirit/Book...no verse is exempt and neither is any whisper from the Spirit.

Also implied is that no verse can contradict another but must be reconciled. I realize that in the heat of our passion for an idea we tend to gloss over interpretations we cannot fit into our theology but to be true to ourselves and our GOD, we must resist that tendency and do our best to reconcile all verses with each other in the Spirit. Then at least we have done all (not just half) due diligence to both the Book of GOD and to the Spirit of GOD.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you Onewithhim, (and to you also Marco),

[Replying to post 1097 by onewithhim]

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path....Sustain me according to Your word, that I may live." (Psalm 119:105, 116, NASB)

Christ IS God's Word. He is the Word of God. He is also the Light, and so the Light to our path.


He is also the Life. So that we live and are sustained by Him.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ (who is the Light, the Life, the Word),
tammy

I agree. And we know about Christ and what he taught by familiarizing ourselves with the Bible. How else would we know?[/b]

From Christ, Himself. The Living Spirit and Word of God.

"My sheep hear my voice."


We can know some about Him (and some about His Father) from what is written, sure. Though some/much of what people glean from what is written (without looking at and listening to Christ for understanding) is in error.

At some point, we must come to Christ, Himself. If we want to know God, then we must know Christ. If we know Christ, then we know His Father as well.

Not just know about , but actually know, have a union with. Because it is knowing God that means life, yes? Not just knowing about?


**

If one does not yet hear Christ, so as to be led by Him into all truth, then one should ask for ears to hear; and if one loves Him, then one will keep His word:

"If anyone loves ME, they will obey MY commands. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with them."


If we love HIM, we will obey HIS commands, keep HIS word.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

The bible is not the sole evidence we have of what Christ said. Christ Himself lives and speaks. His sheep hear His voice.

If we depart from the Bible, we run into trouble. There are spirits abroad that present themselves as angels of light but are actually darkness. "Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2Corinthians11:14) The only way we can tell which spirits are working with us is if we are very familiar with the Bible.

I am with Tam on this one - we only can know the truth of what the bible means from the Spirit, all else is men's tradition and we separate the chaff from the wheat by faith, not proof.

I am Trinitarian, Tam is not.
I lean to everlasting banishment of living spirits in the outer darkness, Tam does not.
I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible as saying what the Holy Spirit wants it to say, Tam sees some of it as in error.

Yet we are both led by a Spirit in the name of Christ. Isn't that interesting? And the main thing I have noticed about those who solve such conundrums by believing the book over the Spirit are those who think that their understanding of the bible is pure truth and not just an interpretation...yet they have no reason to believe that except their tradition claims it.

Because of their interpretations of their religion's book and traditions, the Pharisees rejected the Messiah they were waiting for. They had no ear to hear his voice so missed the blessings of Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

It is not possible for the spirit of God through Christ to lead two people through two different sets of beliefs. Why would he do that? He said he was "the truth." That must mean he recognizes one set of beliefs. How can "there is a fiery hell" and "there is no fiery hell" BOTH be true? Please.

[tam]

Peace to you both.

The bible is not the sole evidence we have of what Christ said. Christ Himself lives and speaks. His sheep hear His voice.

If we depart from the Bible, we run into trouble. There are spirits abroad that present themselves as angels of light but are actually darkness. "Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2Corinthians11:14) The only way we can tell which spirits are working with us is if we are very familiar with the Bible.

I am with Tam on this one - we only can know the truth of what the bible means from the Spirit, all else is men's tradition and we separate the chaff from the wheat by faith, not proof.

I am Trinitarian, Tam is not.
I lean to everlasting banishment of living spirits in the outer darkness, Tam does not.
I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible as saying what the Holy Spirit wants it to say, Tam sees some of it as in error.

Yet we are both led by a Spirit in the name of Christ. Isn't that interesting? And the main thing I have noticed about those who solve such conundrums by believing the book over the Spirit are those who think that their understanding of the bible is pure truth and not just an interpretation...yet they have no reason to believe that except their tradition claims it.

Because of their interpretations of their religion's book and traditions, the Pharisees rejected the Messiah they were waiting for. They had no ear to hear his voice so missed the blessings of Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

It is not possible for the spirit of God through Christ to lead two people through two different sets of beliefs. Why would he do that? He said he was "the truth." That must mean he recognizes one set of beliefs. How can "there is a fiery hell" and "there is no fiery hell" BOTH be true? Please.

Quite right that they (conflicting teachings) cannot both be true. So one would do well to test the 'inspired expression'. Whether it is the inspired expression one is hearing themselves, or the inspired expression that someone else is claiming to have heard.

Test against Christ - as He is the Truth.
Test against love - as God is love, and Christ comes from God, as Truth comes from Love.
You may also test against what is written - though you may want to begin with what Christ said, since again, He is the Truth; and also the One who opens the scriptures up.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy