I would advise you to re-read the apiology I made very carefully, each word is chosen specifically. Take careful note of the words... 'for what it is worth'...
I re-read it several times, and have heard things like it before. It's not new, nor is my critique of it. What I've said about it has been understood and experienced practically by many.
The context of the apology is such that words have caused harm on this board where Christians have forgotten to show love and have instead wielded argument as some sort of theological brick.
Can you be certain that love was "forgotten" vs. being "witheld"? Can YOU apologize for the behavior of others? (Really?)
My evidential base for this is the sharp reaction atheists often give when they perceive a post to be overly judgemental on them.
I can sense you have FEELINGS for people, but I just don't see how you can "apologize" for the worngs of
other "Christians". (How do you effectively do that? And how much can it REALLY mean for atheists who have been HAMMERED relentlessly by difficult Christian people?)
I'm a gay man. I would have to literally HOLD IN the laughter that would come to me, if some "Christian" tried to apologize for the things I've seen come out of other "Christians" which have hurt and offended me over the course of my lifetime. On the other hand, I have been encouraged in forgiveness and reconciliation by other people who sympathize and empathize with what I've been through, but never has anyone "apologized" for all the "Christian-Jerks" I've had to endure; and I wouldn't expect such an
apology to have any real meaning.
WHO can "
apologize" (but Jesus) for what I've been through as a human being?
So far, all I have done is give a 'for what it is worth' apology for the sins of other Christians who do not act like Christians and how badly that has reflected on Jesus.
Geez. You CAN
express concern and care for the effects of wrongdoings suffered, but you CANNOT "
apologize" (and have it be meaningful) for the wrongdoings performed by others. A promise or proven intention to promote
reconciliation has more meaning than that (apology) ever will.
In return I have had a so called Christian critcise this apology with the following words.
Ok, then I'm not a "Christian" then. For now, consider me a "realist"; I don't have to always be agreeable, to be a fellow believer.
You can only apologize for wrong that
YOU have done or for good things you have personally
neglected to DO; you cannot (by proxy) effectively offer any deeply meaningful
apology for things you had nothing to do with personally (you don't
necessarily have that "authority", even as a "Christian"); only Jesus can do that. That is what is meant by "
propitiation", which is what you seem to have confused with the concept of an "apology". People are looking for propitiation, not words full of promises.
More on "propitiation" here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search? ... opitiation
Worthless
Meaningless
Unbelievable
Unsupported
Yep. Such are often the effects of apologies offered, where offenses are displaced by proxy. If I believe the concept you promote, then the apology of an 18 year old white person, should have meaning for all those affected by 400+ years of chattel slavery in this nation.
You contradict yourself by pampering to my feelings with phrases such as
Mel said: I'm not doubting that you are sincere...You can hold the view you do, and I would never attack you for it
You have that wrong, but perhaps your perception of what I said leaves you with the conclusion that you are being attacked. That was NOT a putdown; we just differ on certain points. Personally, I believe that you are still very free to believe and act as you have indicated. Just be aware that others will often disagree with you. Being a "Christian" or "feeling" for others doesn't give you the authority to take on the FAULTS of others. You can
care,
empathizeand
promote goodwill, but you cannot typically offer a
meaningful apology for the wrongs others have commited.
What you are telling me is that it is worthless, meaningless, pointless, unsupported because I cannot display in actions what you do not doubt is sincere in words?
It wasn't meant as a putdown, merely as criticism of what you believe the apology is worth. I'm not attacking your character, just offering my point of view upon why we differ in our thinking.
Ironically this is suggesting I am not acting in love in the same apology because it is love which brings the meaning.
How is the
meaning most effectively COMMUNICATED? I don't think you should expect a mere "apology" to convey the kind of goodwill you seem to imagine it does.
Actions DO speak louder and more effectively than mere words.
Ask yourself this question. What possible motivation could I have for staunchly defending the sincerity of such my apology? Could it be that I lovingly mean it?
I have already told you, that it's not the
sincerity of what you offer from your "heart" that I question; not at all. I don't KNOW you one iota. What I have addressed is the concept of what apologies are often
worth, if not backed by "
action".
Mel said: ...but that out of caring and compassion TRY to find points of reconciliation between one another.
And "apology" is NOT necessarily EQUAL to this.
It strikes me as dangerous ground when you consider
Mel said: Words are a dime a dozen... Words are cheap
Who is NOT aware of this?! People can EASILY say what others want to hear (or what they "believe" others want to hear). The world contains an abundance of that (verbal) B.S. (really); from little white-lies to politcal promises. If people aren't taking their words/faith and putting them into ACTION, then they aren't doing much that is verifiable or worthwhile.
Words are not cheap, they can inspire (speeches), comfort (poetry), illuminate (education), create (stories)... and even reconcile (apologies)
They are so-often and typically LESS EFFECTIVE than actions
(by comparison), and people know that
INTUITIVELY.
You may believe this due to your life experience, but you have to face this fact. You are using words to communicate that words are meaningless, cheap and 'dime a dozen'. This is where you are being hit with the laws of non-contradiction. To illustrate the words in the phrase 'words are cheap' are cheap and hence the phrase cannot be taken seroiusly.
Of course, there is a LIMIT to the real value of things said/proclaimed. And that is where I must leave certain things to the providence of God. I cannot make you see my view, my experiences and my absolute reasoning for criticizing what you have said. I'm not even saying I have ALL that needs to be said or understood on the matter; I'm mostly sharing the reasons why I differ with your views.
You can show love with your language.
I know, and I have. But that is NO COMPARISON to what I have DONE to
prove love by actions.
Do not think me naive, I am well aware that some will consider my words cheap (you are one of them) but believe me, I will not let this take away from the sincerity that I feel in the depth of my sorrow over Christians that talk God and do not show him by their tone, manner and love in language, motives, actions and relationships.
I don't judge your character, I accept you as a person; I also accept that we differ (where the value of spoken "apologies" are concerned). Big deal; God will teach us all, in due time.
-Mel-
I still don't see how you can apologize for the "transgressions" of other people. How do you support the idea/concept that YOU can do this? BTW, "Christians" don't get a free pass from other Chrstians (to not be disagreed with). If you say something that is questionable, why should another person not address what you've said???
That is clearly not what I have said nor implied; my contention with you hinges upon the reality that apologies are often rendered meaningless, due to lack of something REAL to back it up. And I would further contend, that is near the CORE of problems related to those which have cause many to turn away from "Christianity" altogether. In the face of the very REAL effects of "Christians" and their actions, an apology is like a strand of cotton, trying to soak up a river of tears. Outside of a miracle where God's grace pours upon us all, words will not lead to the kind of "propitiation" you seem to relegate to the rendering of an "apology"; they just don't mean that much (really).
