Psalm 14

[2Dbunk]

Psalm 14 is explicit that non-believers can do no good "none what ever." This leaves atheists open to ridicule and discrimination. With this mindset, atheists are/have been barred from public office (but not the military), and killed in other not so humane cultures.

I am one of the atheists that is not in prison (atheists in prison are a miniscule percentage of the prison population -- less than .05% while atheists makeup 6 to 10% of the population in the U.S.). So, where do religionists get off calling atheists evil?

The New Testament is obviously wrong in its ridiculous claim mentioned above (like so many other instances). Anyone care to debate?

[Divine Insight]

Sorry, you'll get no debate from me. I'm in 100% agreement with you that the Bible has clearly made a totally false accusation.

You've given the example of atheists being under represented in jails. However, the Bible claims that NONE doeth good, NOT A ONE.

Therefore we only need one example of a decent atheist and the Bible will have been proven wrong. I can think of tons of examples of good atheists. Therefore I can know with certainty that the Biblical scriptures are indeed false, or at least contain outright falsehoods to be absolutely certain.

My own sister is a very convinced atheist (secular materialist to be exact), and I've known her my entire life. You're not going to find a better person, or one who has more compassion for others than her. So I have a very obvious example in my life that the Biblical claims are indeed totally false.

By the way, I think it's fitting that all it takes to prove the Bible is false is ONE good atheist.

[tam]

These are those who are supposed to be in a covenant with God. Part of that covenant is to love God with their whole heart, which would meant to at least not deny Him, but also to seek Him.


Instead, these ones show no faith in Him, despite all that God did for them (rescued from Egypt, etc). Not only that, but they think in their heart that that God is not watching, and so do whatever bad thing that they want, thinking no God will notice, such as lying, cheating, stealing, showing no mercy, etc, etc. But these ones should know better. (Ezekiel 8:12 He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'")



It is not a statement against an atheist who was never in a covenant with God to begin with. How many atheists do you think there were in those days?


From what I understand, also in the NT, unbelievers are those who are supposed to be listening to God, supposed to be in a covenant with God, but did not believe in the One God sent to them. It could also be those who should have believed, but refused (for whatever reason), in Christ.

Either way, there weren't a whole lot of atheists around in those days either.



But an atheist most certainly can act in accordance with the law (of love), simply because that law (of love) is upon his heart. Such ones will be declared righteous at the judgment. Indeed Christ spoke of those who are not Christian as being the sheep, from the sheep and the goats parable, whoa re invited into the Kingdom on the basis of the good that they did - unknowingly - to even the least of His brothers. They did so because the law of love is written upon their hearts.

Paul is a second witness to it.

Romans 2:13-16

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)



People discriminating against atheists just for being atheist - never mind what good an atheist may do, what love he might have - well, such people might want to consider the above.

So I guess I can't debate you on it either, except to suggest the verse might not mean as much as what some state it means.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Wootah]

Psalm 14 is explicit that non-believers can do no good "none what ever." This leaves atheists open to ridicule and discrimination. With this mindset, atheists are/have been barred from public office (but not the military), and killed in other not so humane cultures.

I am one of the atheists that is not in prison (atheists in prison are a miniscule percentage of the prison population -- less than .05% while atheists makeup 6 to 10% of the population in the U.S.). So, where do religionists get off calling atheists evil?

The New Testament is obviously wrong in its ridiculous claim mentioned above (like so many other instances). Anyone care to debate?

If it is any consolidation Christians interpret all as all and not atheists.

[2Dbunk]

It is not a statement against an atheist who was never in a covenant with God to begin with. How many atheists do you think there were in those days?

They weren't tolerated very long! However, I was in a covenant with God until I was 23.
[/quote]

[PeteZa]

Psalm 14 is explicit that non-believers can do no good "none what ever." This leaves atheists open to ridicule and discrimination. With this mindset, atheists are/have been barred from public office (but not the military), and killed in other not so humane cultures.

I am one of the atheists that is not in prison (atheists in prison are a miniscule percentage of the prison population -- less than .05% while atheists makeup 6 to 10% of the population in the U.S.). So, where do religionists get off calling atheists evil?

The New Testament is obviously wrong in its ridiculous claim mentioned above (like so many other instances). Anyone care to debate?

Not sure what you want to debate, except someone to say it doesn't say what it says. The way I see it, though, it says what it says and means what it says. In God's economy there are only two types of people in the world: believers and not believers. The non-believers are fools and believers are sanctified fools, meaning they make the cut, but not for not acting like a fool. (Jesus had to come to fix that problem). The last sentence in vs 1 of 14 says "There is none who does good." and one could take that as a continuance of vs 1 and suggest the writer is only talking about "fools" or that he switched gears and referring to everyone because the Bible states in various places that no one does good, or if they do, the "goodness" is like filtthy rags (Isaiah, I think).

[PeteZa]

It is not a statement against an atheist who was never in a covenant with God to begin with. How many atheists do you think there were in those days?

Do you really mean that or are you trying to make the Bible sound more palpable to atheists who are part of the debate? A believer who is even obedient, obviously would still think God exists. Only a nonbeliever would be able to say with any conviction that "There is No God" if he believes it in his heart.

[PeteZa]

Therefore we only need one example of a decent atheist and the Bible will have been proven wrong. I can think of tons of examples of good atheists.

I don't think that would cut it, though. Under Jesus "good" is out and "believing faith" is in. The Old testament, including this Psalm, was supposed to be foreshadowing the eventual coming of the new covenant under Jesus Christ. So the first 39 books of the Bible are pretty much a downer for everyone.

[tam]

It is not a statement against an atheist who was never in a covenant with God to begin with. How many atheists do you think there were in those days?

Do you really mean that or are you trying to make the Bible sound more palpable to atheists who are part of the debate? A believer who is even obedient, obviously would still think God exists. Only a nonbeliever would be able to say with any conviction that "There is No God" if he believes it in his heart.

A palatable bible is not going to make an atheist believe in God any more than a non-palatable bible. So I am not interested in making the bible palatable. I am interested in truth/Truth.

An atheist might be foolish not to believe, or stubborn or hard-hearted. Or he might be sincere, but just can't make himself believe. "Faith is not the possession of all men." But he is certainly not unable to show love to his fellow man, or to follow the golden rule and the second commandment, just naturally, because love is written upon his heart. Nor - if he does have the law of love upon his heart and so acts in accordance to that - is he prevented from entering the Kingdom as a subject of that Kingdom.

Christ taught that. It gets overlooked because religion tends to focus on atheists as the "enemy", perhaps because of misunderstanding verses such as the one in the OP. If more people focused on Christ, they might hear and see that most verses that speak of faithlessness are speaking of the faithlessness of those who are supposed to and/or claim to have faith.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PeteZa]

It is not a statement against an atheist who was never in a covenant with God to begin with. How many atheists do you think there were in those days?

Do you really mean that or are you trying to make the Bible sound more palpable to atheists who are part of the debate? A believer who is even obedient, obviously would still think God exists. Only a nonbeliever would be able to say with any conviction that "There is No God" if he believes it in his heart.

A palatable bible is not going to make an atheist believe in God any more than a non-palatable bible. So I am not interested in making the bible palatable. I am interested in truth/Truth.

An atheist might be foolish not to believe, or stubborn or hard-hearted. Or he might be sincere, but just can't make himself believe. "Faith is not the possession of all men." But he is certainly not unable to show love to his fellow man, or to follow the golden rule and the second commandment, just naturally, because love is written upon his heart. Nor - if he does have the law of love upon his heart and so acts in accordance to that - is he prevented from entering the Kingdom as a subject of that Kingdom.

Christ taught that. It gets overlooked because religion tends to focus on atheists as the "enemy", perhaps because of misunderstanding verses such as the one in the OP. If more people focused on Christ, they might hear and see that most verses that speak of faithlessness are speaking of the faithlessness of those who are supposed to and/or claim to have faith.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Well, OK but I dont see how anyone can not be able to see that the chapter begins by addressing the fact that people who do not believe in God are fools.