Marriage Equality Marches Forward

[Haven]

Today's ruling on marriage equality has brought equal marriage rights to several new states. It really looks like anti-gay activists are on the wrong side of history here, and soon marriage for all will be the law of the land.

What's interesting to me (from a philosophical and sociological perspective) is that both pro-discrimination and pro-marriage-equality advocates claim to be "pro-family." Anti-marriage advocates claim that allowing same-gender couples to get married will undermine different-gender marriages and somehow do harm to children. Pro-equality people, on the other hand, say that equalizing marriage laws will allow same-gender couples to access the protections and benefits of marriage (hospital visitation, child adoption, tax breaks, social legitimacy), which will let them build strong families and more fully contribute to society.

Debate question: What do you think? Does opening up marriage to same-gender couples strengthen or harm the family? Is supporting marriage equality the best political option for people who are pro-family?

[Stonez]

I constantly hear about statistics and evidence that gay marriage is not harmful to child. While I come from a broken home myself and am very aware that hetro marriages don't always end well, I have to go by the same experiences with Gay relationships and children, regardless of what lobbyists claim statistics say.

I have watched my brother in law become my sister in law, while his/her whole family suffers to the extreme. Even my own children are confused and troubled badly. I feel so sorry for my niece and nephew and the way this has derailed there lives. I hate to think of the eventual out come.

Then I have another friend, a single mother, who hooked up with same a sex partner. She has/had 2 beautiful young children when they got together. They are still together 20yrs later, only her beautiful daughter is dead from a drug overdose and he strong son is now a homosexual and totally confused about how to act around males or how to be a man. I watched all this happen.

Then there is a friend of my daughters who has seen her mother hook up with another woman after leaving her father. Again, totally derailed, depressed and cutting herself. I hate to think of the end result of her suffering.

Then there is another friend of another of my daughters. Exactly the same thing. The mother leaves the father, takes the kids, hooks up with another woman. The daughter is so depressed that I have seen her brake down hysterically, saying, "Why", "Why", "Why". "I just don't get it". It was heart braking!

So spare me all the gay propaganda...Children's rights should be put before Parents rights...That will help families...

[Danmark]

I constantly hear about statistics and evidence that gay marriage is not harmful to child. While I come from a broken home myself and am very aware that hetro marriages don't always end well, I have to go by the same experiences with Gay relationships and children, regardless of what lobbyists claim statistics say.

I have watched my brother in law become my sister in law, while his/her whole family suffers to the extreme. Even my own children are confused and troubled badly. I feel so sorry for my niece and nephew and the way this has derailed there lives. I hate to think of the eventual out come.

Then I have another friend, a single mother, who hooked up with same a sex partner. She has/had 2 beautiful young children when they got together. They are still together 20yrs later, only her beautiful daughter is dead from a drug overdose and he strong son is now a homosexual and totally confused about how to act around males or how to be a man. I watched all this happen.

Then there is a friend of my daughters who has seen her mother hook up with another woman after leaving her father. Again, totally derailed, depressed and cutting herself. I hate to think of the end result of her suffering.

Then there is another friend of another of my daughters. Exactly the same thing. The mother leaves the father, takes the kids, hooks up with another woman. The daughter is so depressed that I have seen her brake down hysterically, saying, "Why", "Why", "Why". "I just don't get it". It was heart braking!

So spare me all the gay propaganda...Children's rights should be put before Parents rights...That will help families...

I appreciate this because I know it comes from the heart. You are expressing real concern and anguish about people you know and love.

But it's important to keep anecdotal information in perspective. Putting aside the gay marriage issue, we have known for some time that if divorced parents maintain their relationship sufficiently that their children continue to see them as a team working together on their behalf, the children of divorce do just as well as the children from intact marriages. The factors of family life that really impact children are facts that have nothing to do with divorce or gender orientation of the parents. Those issues have more to do with the parents' mental health and emotional issues, their commitment to work together for the their children's welfare, and just plain loving and supporting their children in a responsible, genuine way. If one or more of the parents is a broken child him or herself, it puts tremendous pressure on the remaining parent. I also think that a lot of very well meaning parents who honestly try to do their best, simply make mistakes for one reason or another. Kids don't come with an instruction manual. But it really helps if a child knows he is loved. That covers a multitude of mistakes.

[micatala]

I constantly hear about statistics and evidence that gay marriage is not harmful to child. While I come from a broken home myself and am very aware that hetro marriages don't always end well, I have to go by the same experiences with Gay relationships and children, regardless of what lobbyists claim statistics say.

I have watched my brother in law become my sister in law, while his/her whole family suffers to the extreme. Even my own children are confused and troubled badly. I feel so sorry for my niece and nephew and the way this has derailed there lives. I hate to think of the eventual out come.

Then I have another friend, a single mother, who hooked up with same a sex partner. She has/had 2 beautiful young children when they got together. They are still together 20yrs later, only her beautiful daughter is dead from a drug overdose and he strong son is now a homosexual and totally confused about how to act around males or how to be a man. I watched all this happen.

Then there is a friend of my daughters who has seen her mother hook up with another woman after leaving her father. Again, totally derailed, depressed and cutting herself. I hate to think of the end result of her suffering.

Then there is another friend of another of my daughters. Exactly the same thing. The mother leaves the father, takes the kids, hooks up with another woman. The daughter is so depressed that I have seen her brake down hysterically, saying, "Why", "Why", "Why". "I just don't get it". It was heart braking!

So spare me all the gay propaganda...Children's rights should be put before Parents rights...That will help families...

I can certainly accept that personal experience is often going to be found compelling. However, my first point would be that personal experience should not trump evidence related to the whole system. We should not pass laws based on personal experience if that means passing laws that run counter to the totality of everyone's experience.

Secondly, your last claim is a false dichotomy. This is not in all cases a choice between parent's rights and children's right's Furthermore, your argument is not really an argument against gay marriage, but an argument against divorce or splits between parents or even against single parenting.

Thirdly, none of your examples relates to a same-sex couple that pre-dated having children. How can you conclude that having same-sex parents has a negative effect on children without any data that isolates that variable?

Related to that, you are committing the fallacy of false cause because you have given no reason to suggest that the presence of homosexuality or same-sex relationships is what caused the problems your family members experienced. It could have been the break-ups of previous relationships. In the one case, it appears there was a gender change involved.

Two of the cases involved a woman leaving her husband. There is certainly a plethora of data indicating marital/parental break-up can have negative effects on children. Why do you make the unsubstantiated claim it was the same-sex aspect that caused the problems, when there is no evidence for that, and ignore the much more likely explanation that does have data to support it?

[Stonez]

I can certainly accept that personal experience is often going to be found compelling. However, my first point would be that personal experience should not trump evidence related to the whole system. We should not pass laws based on personal experience if that means passing laws that run counter to the totality of everyone's experience.

The problem is, I am not convinced by "the systems" evidence, due to my personal experiences. I'm old enough to have seen "the system" change their evidence on many things, after the propaganda wears off. I suspect the same in this case...

It looks like we here in Australia are going to have a referendum on this issue, where everyone gets an individual vote on it. If that happens, I will put money on the Gay lobby loosing by a landslide. I will prove my case, when the mass majority reject what a minority have been pushing for, while claiming it is the majority view...

That will happen even after many years of gay lobby propaganda changing the minds of dogooders and women. If I am wrong, then I will accept the majority vote when it happens...

Secondly, your last claim is a false dichotomy. This is not in all cases a choice between parent's rights and children's right's Furthermore, your argument is not really an argument against gay marriage, but an argument against divorce or splits between parents or even against single parenting.

Fair point concerning the false dichotomy but I disagree with the second point. While divorce or even being a single mother did play a roll in my observations of what these kids are going through, it was the children's lack of acceptance and how they dealt with the gay thing that was what struck me more than anything, in most of these cases...

Thirdly, none of your examples relates to a same-sex couple that pre-dated having children. How can you conclude that having same-sex parents has a negative effect on children without any data that isolates that variable?

I haven't concluded that about pre dated couples but I have concluded that it should be an adoptive child's right to not be forced into a gay family. They should, by right, be put with a father and a mother.

I'm a strong believer in Children's rights and they should have the right to not be forced to be raised by gays before they can even think for themselves, just so gay people can have children. Seems selfish to me?

I'm not one to just follow the masses blindly. I like to think for myself. If that does make me a minority, then so be it...

Related to that, you are committing the fallacy of false cause because you have given no reason to suggest that the presence of homosexuality or same-sex relationships is what caused the problems your family members experienced. It could have been the break-ups of previous relationships. In the one case, it appears there was a gender change involved.

Without going into long details on a post, lets just say, I know the difference between being derailed by divorce and being derailed by being forced into a gay family life. I have seen the consequences of both...

Two of the cases involved a woman leaving her husband. There is certainly a plethora of data indicating marital/parental break-up can have negative effects on children. Why do you make the unsubstantiated claim it was the same-sex aspect that caused the problems, when there is no evidence for that, and ignore the much more likely explanation that does have data to support it?

Actually, there is plenty of evidence for it. Maybe none I care to go into detail on in a forum in great length but for myself, like I said above, I know the difference, I know these children, I know their troubles and they are all based upon the gay issues in each of their lives. I'm sure there are the underlying affects from divorce or being adopted or even just having a single parent but these issues I have raised are in direct relation to the hardships of dealing with gay parents and being forced into living in a gay family environment.

As Danmark pointed out above, Love goes a long way with any child, no matter what they are going through, regardless of gay or not gay. I tend to agree on that note...

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 31 by Stonez]

I constantly hear about statistics and evidence that gay marriage is not harmful to child. While I come from a broken home myself and am very aware that hetro marriages don't always end well, I have to go by the same experiences with Gay relationships and children, regardless of what lobbyists claim statistics say.

I have watched my brother in law become my sister in law, while his/her whole family suffers to the extreme. Even my own children are confused and troubled badly. I feel so sorry for my niece and nephew and the way this has derailed there lives. I hate to think of the eventual out come.

Then I have another friend, a single mother, who hooked up with same a sex partner. She has/had 2 beautiful young children when they got together. They are still together 20yrs later, only her beautiful daughter is dead from a drug overdose and he strong son is now a homosexual and totally confused about how to act around males or how to be a man. I watched all this happen.

Then there is a friend of my daughters who has seen her mother hook up with another woman after leaving her father. Again, totally derailed, depressed and cutting herself. I hate to think of the end result of her suffering.

Then there is another friend of another of my daughters. Exactly the same thing. The mother leaves the father, takes the kids, hooks up with another woman. The daughter is so depressed that I have seen her brake down hysterically, saying, "Why", "Why", "Why". "I just don't get it". It was heart braking!

So spare me all the gay propaganda...Children's rights should be put before Parents rights...That will help families...

Well, I am sure that those are wonderful examples that prove your point. Your statistics seem to be better than the statistics the gay propagandists want to foist upon you. You have a sample rate of 3 gay marriages and they all turn out badly for the kids.

3 out of 3 .. wow
That's a 100% ratio right there.. remarkable!

What is your point?
When people talk about gays being able to be good parents, that's just gay propaganda because you have a sample of 3 gay marriages that ended up with problems?

Most marriages have problems.
Problems cause kids to be unhappy.

Is this hetero propaganda?
What IS your point?

Are you saying that gays should not marry and should not have kids because some gay parents have issues?

Are you saying that hetero parents don't sometimes have very big issues, but different, hetero issues that gays don't have?

Lots of parents do things that the kids wont like. That's so upsetting to the kids.
Let's stop parents from upsetting their kids by having issues to deal with?

Is that hetero propaganda, or gay propaganda.. I can't seem to make up my mind about this. Let's prevent parenthood because it potentially harms kids.

Because parents have potential issues.

A message brought to you by some weird and very evil anti-family group of America.

[enviousintheeverafter]

I constantly hear about statistics and evidence that gay marriage is not harmful to child. While I come from a broken home myself and am very aware that hetro marriages don't always end well, I have to go by the same experiences with Gay relationships and children, regardless of what lobbyists claim statistics say.

There's no either/or. As a rule, homosexual parents doesn't correlate to any increased danger/harm to children- but obviously a general rule doesn't preclude exceptions, and anecdotes of exceptions don't disprove the general rule. But make no mistake, it is a well-established fact that same-sex parents don't present any increased danger/harm to children:

-Miller 1979- "Data indicate that notions about gay fathers' compensatory behavior, molestation of children, negative influence on child development, and instigation of harassment are largely unfounded. The father's "coming out" to his children tends to relieve family tension and strengthen the father-child bond."

-Green et al 1986- "Concerns that being raised by a homosexual mother might produce sexual identity conflict and peer group stigmatization were not supported by the research findings... The postulated compromised parental fitness of lesbian mothers, commonly asserted in child custody cases, is not supported by these data."

-Gottman 1989- "The author's study found that adult-aged daughters of lesbian mothers did not significantly differ from adult daughters of heterosexual mothers on gender identity, gender role, sexual orientation, and social adjustment."

We could go on here with individual studies, but I'll just conclude with the findings of Burrell and Allen's 1997 meta-analysis of the existing research on the subject (i.e. which included many individual studies)-

"The results demonstrate no differences on any measures between the heterosexual and homosexual parents regarding parenting styles, emotional adjustment, and sexual orientation of the child(ren). In other words, the data fail to support the continuation of a bias against homosexual parents by any court."

So spare me all the gay propaganda...Children's rights should be put before Parents rights...

I agree, to an extent, but again, there's no conflict here so its not an either/or- at least, no more so than in any other parental/familial arrangement. And we're not talking about propaganda, but well-established and widely replicated scientific results published in peer-reviewed publications. Given this, "spare me all the gay propaganda" can mean little else than "I won't let facts get in the way of my opinion".

[enviousintheeverafter]

As a rule, homosexual parents doesn't correlate to any increased danger/harm to children- but obviously a general rule doesn't preclude exceptions, and anecdotes of exceptions don't disprove the general rule.

The bottom line is that no one claims that same-sex parents are perfect, or that all children of same-sex parents are perfectly well-adjusted and happy, and it would be unreasonable to hold this as the standard- the point is that same-sex parents are no worse than traditional couples, so the well-being of children cannot be used as a reason to exclude same-sex couples from adoption/marriage/parenting (since same-sex couples are in exactly the same boat as everyone else in this regard).

[DanieltheDragon]

I constantly hear about statistics and evidence that gay marriage is not harmful to child. While I come from a broken home myself and am very aware that hetro marriages don't always end well, I have to go by the same experiences with Gay relationships and children, regardless of what lobbyists claim statistics say.

I have watched my brother in law become my sister in law, while his/her whole family suffers to the extreme. Even my own children are confused and troubled badly. I feel so sorry for my niece and nephew and the way this has derailed there lives. I hate to think of the eventual out come.

Then I have another friend, a single mother, who hooked up with same a sex partner. She has/had 2 beautiful young children when they got together. They are still together 20yrs later, only her beautiful daughter is dead from a drug overdose and he strong son is now a homosexual and totally confused about how to act around males or how to be a man. I watched all this happen.

Then there is a friend of my daughters who has seen her mother hook up with another woman after leaving her father. Again, totally derailed, depressed and cutting herself. I hate to think of the end result of her suffering.

Then there is another friend of another of my daughters. Exactly the same thing. The mother leaves the father, takes the kids, hooks up with another woman. The daughter is so depressed that I have seen her brake down hysterically, saying, "Why", "Why", "Why". "I just don't get it". It was heart braking!

So spare me all the gay propaganda...Children's rights should be put before Parents rights...That will help families...

This run's counter to my experience. My father's father abused him his mom and his brother and sister. My own parent's ended in divorce and neither one knew exactly how to handle the situation two of my siblings ended up with drug issues and I had to teach myself how to socialize after I left the home(neither parent ended up being particularly good at helping me in this department).

I have a close friend who had a child with a man who left her and she was left to raise him on her own. 3 of my friends from highschool who were raised by hetero parents died of overdose. 1 of my friends from highschool commited suiced and had hetero parents.

Of the same-sex couples that I know 1 familial and 4 outside of the family have raised fantastic kids who are doing very well for themselves. While all families have issues these 5 families seem to be very close knit more so than those in my immediate family.

Perhaps anecdotes are not a good way to judge people.

[Stonez]

I'm walking out the door for the day so I will try to respond to these posts soon...

Just briefly, I suppose more to the point for me, It is more that I don't like being told what to think by minority lobbyist propaganda groups. I grew up in a country that prided it's self in free speech and freedom of expression. There are those who would have our freedoms eroded until it is destroyed. These people use words like Homophobic, Islamaphobic, Misogynist, Racist, Bigot and anything else to demean anyone expressing their freedom. Bloody do gooders, you are the ones destroying our freedoms while acting like the Liberator!

I don't have an issue with gays as much as I have an issue with bullshit. I'm tiered of being told how I must think. Personally, I couldn't care less what gays do but I gave examples of 6 children going through hell because of being forced into a gay lifestyle by parents, in my life alone...Shrug that off and neglect our children in the name of gay rights but I think I will trust my own instincts on this...Time will tell...

I hope we do have a referendum because that will prove I am right about these gay lobbyist views being a minority...That's why the gay lobbyists are furious about our PM taking it to the people to decide...If I am wrong, I will rethink it but I doubt I am. Seen this kind of thing before and I'm not about to be politicly correct or have my freedoms stripped away by those sucked in by this propaganda, regardless of their argument....

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 39 by Stonez]

I don't see how the kids are forced into 'the gay lifestyle' in those examples.. nor why it would've been 'the gay lifestyle' that lead the parents to ruinous relationships. I don't think the ends always justify the means anyway. What's the point of trying to make the claim that homosexual relationships are less successful?

-

That said, I find the ones who love to say -ist and -phobic can be quite bigoted themselves. There have been many chilling visions of 'liberal' fascism lately, and it seems popular with the media. Also not a fan of people trying to get rid of factually correct data because it's not politically correct, or the promotion of false statistics that support pet ideologies seen as good causes.