A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
marketandchurch
Scholar
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:51 am
Location: The People's Republic Of Portland

A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #1

Post by marketandchurch »

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:
Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

  • Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.


If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

OpenYourEyes
Sage
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:41 am

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #881

Post by OpenYourEyes »

marketandchurch wrote: [Replying to post 6 by alive]

Exactly. What is goodness, if it comes with the caveat of belief in Christ. We should stop saying that helping the elderly, defending someone from being raped, or fighting injustice, is good. Because it's not, since all of it is irrelevant in the final analysis, and someone who only does a mediocre amount of goodness in their entire lifetime, but believes in Christ, will live on in heaven, because God only recognizes the goodness of those who believe in Christ.

And what is one's argument to the entire world then, since majority of humanity have not had the chance for an evangelist of the Christian faith, to frame the case for Christ to them?

Will the good among them simply parish or go to hell, for not believing in Jesus? And what is the argument for them to be ethical, if you make the case to them, and they decide not to believe in Jesus?
Now i kind of see where you are coming from. Your view has a bit of the hyper-grace heresy and special pleading.

First, you are imposing your subjective standard over God's standard. By subjective standard i mean your judgement of those who you see as being "decent atheists". Belief in God is a moral command so that alone atheists are unrepetantly in violation of. And if they are INTENTIONALLY not following one rule and get away with it then why should they follow any rule? That sets a bad precedent.

As far as salvation goes, God will not judge us based on the amount of good acts we've done but he still requires that we repent and ask forgiveness. Atheists do not acknowledge Gods standards so you wont find them apologizing or repenting for any God.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6522
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 331 times
Contact:

Post #882

Post by tam »

Peace to you!

I have not read all 88 pages of this thread that has resurfaced. I will just focus on the OP. You are looking for scriptural reasons to back this up:
A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

Setting aside for the moment what 'hell' is (a place of fiery torment or simply the grave), more than just Christians enter the Kingdom.

We can see this in the sheep and the goats parable, where the sheep the goats are neither of them Christian, but the sheep are still invited into the Kingdom:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left."

Christians, on the other hand, are taken up. When Christ returns, He gathers up those who belong to Him - His Bride.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1Thessalonians 4:16,17

Christ Himself said, speaking of His return:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."


Back to the parable:

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."



1 - The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did to Christ's brothers. (not knowingly, for gain, but unknowingly - because they had to ask when they did good to Him, and a Christian would know that by doing good to His brothers, they are doing good to Him - even if just from reading this parable)

2 - People have objected to this understanding because the sheep are called righteous, and they think that only those who believe in Christ and God can be righteous. But this is untrue. There is a second witness to those people who will be called righteous based on what they DO.

Paul writes,

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares."


It is the law of love that these sheep have written upon their hearts, and they do naturally the requirements of that law, and that is why they have also done good to even the least of Christ's brothers. Because they do that good - out of love - to ALL people.



They are not in Christ - so they do not rule as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But they are in love, have love as a covering, and they are also declared righteous, and invited into the Kingdom.


*****


As for Christians:

Christ gathers all of those who belong to Him - His Bride - to rule as kings and priests with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom. Christians sit down upon thrones with Him.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Revelation 5:10

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Revelation 3:21

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6


The simplest question to ask here is if all Christians (not all who call themselves Christians are Christians) are kings and priests of the Kingdom, then who are the subjects of that Kingdom?

**


Then there is also the resurrection of the dead, the second resurrection (after the thousand years, after Satan has been released, the battle has been won) The dead - everyone who has ever died - small and great - are resurrected. Some to judgment, and some to life. (revelation 20:11-15)

But Christians were already gathered to Christ in the first resurrection. So how can they be among the dead now being resurrected? Yet, these dead are judged according to their individual books (the deeds and words of their lives). Same as the sheep and the goats were judged. And any whose names are written in the lamb's book of life are also invited into the Kingdom.

Two resurrections. The first for Christians. The second for everyone else who has died, from the beginning.


****


On top of all of that, all Israel will be saved.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

All Israel will not be kings and priests - as they would have been had they accepted their King when He came to them and called them. Some will be kings and priests (the remnant that God reserved for Himself... the 144 000 written about in Revelation), and any more than that number who accept Christ. But all will be saved, and invited into the Kingdom.


***

This will not be enough for all of those who have been convinced that Christians go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell.

But at the very least, those who seek truth should be able to at least reason - except for the fear that religion has installed in man - that someone who has love upon their hearts, and does the requirements of that law, can be invited into the Kingdom. They are not going to wreak havoc in the Kingdom. They have proven that the law is upon their heart.

God is good. And just. And merciful. And love. We should probably stop putting our limitations on Him.


None need take my word for anything. Test against what is written. Test against love. To know the truth, ask Christ for the truth of this matter (so test against the light that is Christ). May you, if you wish them be given ears so as to be able to hear the truth from Him; as well as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come. Take the free gift of the water of Life."



I do not have to drop scripture to have this understanding. Scripture supports it, as I have shared with you above. Hopefully that helps along the line with what you were asking.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #883

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 876 by OpenYourEyes]
Belief in God is a moral command so that alone atheists are unrepetantly in violation of. And if they are INTENTIONALLY not following one rule and get away with it then why should they follow any rule? That sets a bad precedent.
Hi! I'm an atheist. Want to run that by me one more time please? Just how is it possible to command a person to believe {X} and actually expect that person to believe {X} is true, just by that command? If I command you to believe Santa Claus is real, does that work on you?
How am I "INTENTIONALLY" not following this rule of belief in God when I'm simply not convinced he exists? I'm not convinced that you are Barack Obama. Would it make sense if you said to me "You're intentionally not believing that I'm Obama! You're setting a bad precedent!"
Yeah...setting a bad precedent by not being convinced of extraordinary claims simply because I'm supposedly commanded to.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #884

Post by ttruscott »

Danmark wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote: First, there are no decent people. The thoughts of his heart are only evil continually. Man was created sin-ful. ... Man has no free will. Free will in man is an illusion. There is only ONE God. And God does what He will with His creation. And He is completely Just, and Righteous, and Holy in the discharge of His will towards man. And no one can say to God, "Why have you made me thus?"

God is on His throne and all is right with the "world."
Sounds more like this God is wretched, evil, mean, a deceitful torturer; a truly evil being who wants his supposed creations to be miserable.
Indeed. That is why when I was taught that GOD DID NOT CREATE US SINFUL I dumped all the orthodox sects that accept this blasphemy and have studied the implications of this change ever since.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #885

Post by ttruscott »

OpenYourEyes wrote:
...

My response

Romans 1:20 also explains that all know that a God exists. If they want to get to a specific God then you have to pray about it or seek a relationship..

....
Ummm, a closer reading of Rom 1:1-20 shows conclusively that it is YHWH, the One True Living GOD whose divinity a power is being discussed, not the implication of a god which is interpretive to avoid the implication that everybody knows so when did we all learn?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Hamsaka
Site Supporter
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:01 am
Location: Olympia, WA

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #886

Post by Hamsaka »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 876 by OpenYourEyes]
Belief in God is a moral command so that alone atheists are unrepetantly in violation of. And if they are INTENTIONALLY not following one rule and get away with it then why should they follow any rule? That sets a bad precedent.
Hi! I'm an atheist. Want to run that by me one more time please? Just how is it possible to command a person to believe {X} and actually expect that person to believe {X} is true, just by that command? If I command you to believe Santa Claus is real, does that work on you?
How am I "INTENTIONALLY" not following this rule of belief in God when I'm simply not convinced he exists? I'm not convinced that you are Barack Obama. Would it make sense if you said to me "You're intentionally not believing that I'm Obama! You're setting a bad precedent!"
Yeah...setting a bad precedent by not being convinced of extraordinary claims simply because I'm supposedly commanded to.
Well, Rikuo, you have to choose to believe {X} by comparing and contrasting the consequences. To choose to believe in an invisible, undetectable, silent and all but non-existent god, one must have an immediate, personal 'experience' of that god, which many claim to have had. I'm not going to address this because I know nothing about that experience and can only speculate.

In the absence of that, what you are left with is two sets of two either/or choices to make. First, these people are claiming wide-eyed that indeed this god DOES exist, whether you believe it or not, that god is there. You listen to their 'proofs', and then you look around and examine life for yourself. Choose.

Second, these people claim there are rather drastic consequences this god will take on those who don't 'believe in ' him (their god is male, don't know if that makes a difference for ya). In the case these folks are correct, and this god exists in spite of you searching high and low and not finding him, you will be punished. Do you want to be punished . . . or rewarded? Dumb question. I want to be rewarded, but I really don't want to be punished maybe a bit more.

The reward or punishment is contingent upon you 'believing in' this god.

A strong aversion to punishment might just make this God a bit more detectable. Maybe you'll even start to see this God in the leaves of grass and the wonder of life itself. Maybe you'll see your deceased loved again (providing they aren't incinerating in Hell). You'll get insta-acceptance into this huge group of people, who you'll find are morally superior (if not in most other ways), and if you hang out with them long enough, you'll wonder how you never believed in God in the first place.

User avatar
Erexsaur
Apprentice
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:09 am

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #887

Post by Erexsaur »

[Replying to post 1 by marketandchurch]

Hello marketandchurch,

Let me first say based on scripture, that no one is good (Romans 3:12). The fact that I am not an atheist makes me no better than you. We are in the same sin boat.

Why the need to go to Jesus? It is because only He died for us to cover our sins and impute upon us His righteousness in exchange. Otherwise no one is able to make it (Hebrews 9:22).

Take care,
Earl

User avatar
Erexsaur
Apprentice
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:09 am

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #888

Post by Erexsaur »

[Replying to Erexsaur]

Hello again,

In addition,

I would like to say that whether an atheist or not, God will allow no one in heaven that continues in sin.

Heaven is open to all including atheists. But all that enter must forsake their sins that bar them from heaven. Upon confession of sin, he is washed from his sins by the blood of Christ. The same is true with the atheist as he is washed from the sin of atheism.

How can an atheist expect to be brought into heaven by the God that he doesn't believe in nor believes exists? how does he expect to forever worship a non-existent god? How can he be washed from his sins by a God he doesn't believe in?

Even non-atheists too often think they are able to enter heaven by their own self-made goodness apart from the washing by the blood of Christ and the putting on of the clothes of the righteousness of Christ..

Take care,
Earl

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #889

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 883 by Erexsaur]

Your posts come across as preaching. You might want to bring up some evidence to hack up your claims, lest you incur action from the mods.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
Daddieslittlehelper
Scholar
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:38 pm

Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #890

Post by Daddieslittlehelper »

marketandchurch wrote: This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:
Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

  • Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.


If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.
Well probably the best parable about this is the parable of the wedding feast

Matthew 22.2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.�

-------------

Luke 14 The Parable of the Great Banquet

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.�

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’�
-----

In this parable: The choosen are those supposedly with God. God invites them and they refuse to come- too busy. So God says Bring we the sick the blind and the lame.

The servants do and there is still room. So god says go out and force people to come- so they force everyone :D Everyone except those choosen but who refused to come.

Ofcourse this is about the kingdom of heaven. There are those choosen who except, those choosen who refuse, the poor, The blind, the sick, and the lame and athiests amoung others who are forced to come :)

Ofcourse Athiests once inside, should atleast show some respect and dress properly :)
"Be loving as your lord is loving´ Christian ´Compassionate as Allah is compassionate´ Muslim, and Jew,´be humble and love Yihweh your God with everything you´ve got´"

"Look! More Queens then Beas is a bad thing!"

"Judge others as you wish to be judged"

Quotes:- ME

Oh and "yes these are my ideas!"

"the Golden rule of Buddism is not ´it´s every monk for himself´Quote- A.f.c.W

Post Reply