Racism, Alive and Well

[Danmark]

The 'liberal' media is talking about their claim that no Republican leaders are attending the 50th anniversary of the Selma march. This doesn't or shouldn't have anything to do with religion, but "liberals" and democrats and those who attend more liberal churches seem to be more sensitive to racial concerns and issues than "conservatives," Republicans, and the Christian right, So...

Many of us have appreciated at least our perception of how race relations have improved and how there is less noticed discrimination these days. That is why our group of 12 or so lawyers who meet weekly to discuss the latest cases from the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court were so incredulous reading the facts of a 2014 case you can read @ https://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/701282.pdf Our group is mostly "white" with two Latinos. Essentially the case was about one guy who complained about all the racist and sexist talk going on. The company fired him for complaining, not those engaging in the racist talk on a routine basis. The COA upheld the trial court's award of $600,969 in damages, attorney fees, and costs. I don't want to repeat the language that was used, but you can see it at the link provided.

So two questions for debate:
1. Have race relations really gotten much better in terms of the hearts and minds of Americans?
2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

[Danmark]

Part of the problem is the great success President Obama has had both economically and in winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not getting us into any new quagmires. The objective facts that compare the Bush administration to Obama's are overwhelmingly in Obama's favor.

Gosh, I don't even know where to start with this. You think Obama has had great success when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan? You are aware that Iraq is being overrun by Islamic militants, and that the growth of ISIS is the fault of Obama's decision to not leave a residual military force behind, right? Don't take my word for it though, listen to Obama's own Secretary of Defense:

I have little doubt the Republicans would love to get us back into a hopeless, pointless, expensive, economy destroying military adventure in the middle East. That is why they treasonously had NetanYahoo* speak to Congress.


_________________
*Yahoo: "The Master Horse tells Gulliver a bunch of things his people have observed about Yahoos: They'll fight at the drop of a hat."
http://www.shmoop.com/gullivers-travels/the-yahoos.html

[rookiebatman]

The objective facts involve the economy and the withdrawal from fields of war. There is no dispute about this and the great improvement over the Bush administration.

There appears to be some significant dispute just one post above yours. The other paragraphs about health care don't even seem to be supporting your point, so I'm not gonna get into that. You also haven't addressed my point that some people can have other priorities besides economics and war, and hate Obama based on those priorities, without racism being a necessary factor to explain their hatred.

Let me put it this way. If there were a different Democrat in office who was a white male, but did everything exactly the same as Obama's doing now, I have every confidence that various members of my family would hate that person every bit as much. How can that be explained by racism?

[Danmark]

The objective facts involve the economy and the withdrawal from fields of war. There is no dispute about this and the great improvement over the Bush administration.

There appears to be some significant dispute just one post above yours. The other paragraphs about health care don't even seem to be supporting your point, so I'm not gonna get into that. You also haven't addressed my point that some people can have other priorities besides economics and war, and hate Obama based on those priorities, without racism being a necessary factor to explain their hatred.

Let me put it this way. If there were a different Democrat in office who was a white male, but did everything exactly the same as Obama's doing now, I have every confidence that various members of my family would hate that person every bit as much. How can that be explained by racism?

Hard to respond to mere speculation. However, I agree that there are other factors besides racism at play: ignorance and religious ideology are great irrational forces akin to racism. I don't know how else to explain the fact that so many po' fokes vote against their interest. With Obama, race is just one more issue that feeds into a 'satan' stereotype about liberal uppity yankee pointy headed intellectuals who don't have a clue about 'real life.'

However, I'll say that the whole DEM v. GOP; Liberal v. Conservative thing is a HUGE distraction to the real issue, which is that our representatives don't represent us as much as they represent the special interests, particularly giant corporations. They can get elected without our piddly $. They can't get elected without corporate America.

In the meantime, please give me the objective financial/economic data that demonstrates this country is worse off economically in 2015 than they were in 2008.

[rookiebatman]

Hard to respond to mere speculation. However, I agree that there are other factors besides racism at play: ignorance and religious ideology are great irrational forces akin to racism.

I don't disagree that religious ideology plays a significant part in the opinions of many Conservatives, but I consider it a completely separate issue from racism.

I don't know how else to explain the fact that so many po' fokes vote against their interest.

Did you watch that Penn video I posted the link to? He briefly talks about this very issue.

With Obama, race is just one more issue that feeds into a 'satan' stereotype about liberal uppity yankee pointy headed intellectuals who don't have a clue about real life.'

Okay, but "liberal uppity yankee pointy headed intellectuals who don't have a clue about 'real life" doesn't have any racial component to it at all. You previously stated that you can't think of any explanation for their hatred of him without race being a factor. I think you've just given one.

However, I'll say that the whole DEM v. GOP; Liberal v. Conservative thing is a HUGE distraction to the real issue, which is that our representatives don't represent us as much as they represent the special interests, particularly giant corporations. They can get elected without our piddly $. They can't get elected without corporate America.

I agree with that.

In the meantime, please give me the objective financial/economic data that demonstrates this country is worse off economically in 2015 than they were in 2008.

I'm no expert on finances or economy, but it does look like the deficit is still a bit higher than it was in 2008. It has dropped significantly since 2009, but it only got so incredibly high after his stimulus program.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -two-thir/

Conversely, the labor force seems to have spiked in 2009, but then steadily (and drastically) declined since then. At this point, it has gone back to being lower than it was in the later part of 2008.

Now, since I've made my inexpert attempt to answer your question, can you in turn give me any authoritative source for this idea that the economy and war are the only areas which should be considered, when judging whether a president has done a good job?

[Danmark]

Now, since I've made my inexpert attempt to answer your question, can you in turn give me any authoritative source for this idea that the economy and war are the only areas which should be considered, when judging whether a president has done a good job?

Any argument that unemployment has not gone WAY down the last 7 years?

OK. What else that the President of the U.S. can control, should we be talking about?

BTW, I do not give Obama any credit for gas prices going down. The Republicans have been hollering the last 7 years, blaming Obama for any increase in gas prices. You hear nothing about giving him credit for the reduction. At any rate, unlike the claims of the GOP to blame or credit Presidents for gas prices, they've dropped because of market forces, tho' those forces have been largely manipulated by OPEC.

[rookiebatman]

Any argument that unemployment has not gone WAY down the last 7 years?

I showed a table that indicates the labor force is now lower than it was in 2008. When you say "unemployment," do you mean the total number, or the figures that don't count people who are considered outside of the labor force as unemployed? If you mean the latter, I don't see what value that figure has. If you mean the former, I don't see how unemployment could possibly have gone way down when the labor force has also gone way down.

OK. What else that the President of the U.S. can control, should we be talking about?

The root of this discussion was the idea that conservatives can't possibly have any reason for hating Obama other than race. So, I think the things we should be talking about are the metrics by which a conservative would judge a president (of any race). If Obama is deficient in those areas, then we've found a reason that conservatives might hate him independent of any racial considerations.

BTW, I do not give Obama any credit for gas prices going down. The Republicans have been hollering the last 7 years, blaming Obama for any increase in gas prices. You hear nothing about giving him credit for the reduction. At any rate, unlike the claims of the GOP to blame or credit Presidents for gas prices, they've dropped because of market forces, tho' those forces have been largely manipulated by OPEC.

I agree with this.

[Danmark]

More than 100 congressional lawmakers are expected this weekend in Selma, Alabama, to commemorate the signing of the Voting Rights Act, the 50th anniversary of the brutal suppression of civil rights demonstrations known as “Bloody Sunday,� and the Selma-to-Montgomery march in 1965. Just 23 of them are current congressional Republicans, Politico reported – 8% of the 301-person caucus. If exactly 100 congressional lawmakers in total show up, that means 77 Democrats (or Independents who caucus with them) – 31% of the caucus – will be present.

Most Republican leaders won’t be in Selma, either. Senate Majority Leader Sen. Mitch McConnell, House Speaker John Boehner and House Majority Whip Steve Scalise won’t observe the anniversary event.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/few-gop-no-l ... head-selma

Tens of thousands of others also attended the event. Congressional Republican leaders were absent from the event, but House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio released a statement.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/07/ob ... -in-selma/

[rookiebatman]

[Replying to post 67 by Danmark]

This might seem like nitpicking, but did you go to Selma to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Voting Rights Act? If not, why is it okay for you but not okay for congressmen?

[Danmark]

Any argument that unemployment has not gone WAY down the last 7 years?

I showed a table that indicates the labor force is now lower than it was in 2008. When you say "unemployment," do you mean the total number, or the figures that don't count people who are considered outside of the labor force as unemployed? If you mean the latter, I don't see what value that figure has. If you mean the former, I don't see how unemployment could possibly have gone way down when the labor force has also gone way down.

OK. What else that the President of the U.S. can control, should we be talking about?

The root of this discussion was the idea that conservatives can't possibly have any reason for hating Obama other than race. So, I think the things we should be talking about are the metrics by which a conservative would judge a president (of any race). If Obama is deficient in those areas, then we've found a reason that conservatives might hate him independent of any racial considerations.

BTW, I do not give Obama any credit for gas prices going down. The Republicans have been hollering the last 7 years, blaming Obama for any increase in gas prices. You hear nothing about giving him credit for the reduction. At any rate, unlike the claims of the GOP to blame or credit Presidents for gas prices, they've dropped because of market forces, tho' those forces have been largely manipulated by OPEC.

I agree with this.

You wrote:

The root of this discussion was the idea that conservatives can't possibly have any reason for hating Obama other than race.

Please show where I said this.
Tho' the jobs issue is mixed, overall it's very good for the President, particularly the unemployment statistics.

Jobs, paychecks, corporate profits and stock prices have all improved since our last report on the Obama statistical record. Some highlights:
The economy has now gained nearly five times more jobs under President Barack Obama than it did during the presidency of George W. Bush, and the unemployment rate has dropped to just below the historical average.
Real weekly earnings are up 1.7 percent, thanks in part to a plunge in gasoline prices.
Corporate profits have nearly tripled, and stock prices have soared.
On the other hand, the number of Americans receiving food stamps remains 45 percent higher than when the president first took office, and the rate of home ownership has dropped by 3.2 percentage points, to the lowest point in nearly 20 years.
The average premium for a benchmark “silver� health plan in the Obamacare marketplaces rose only 2 percent this year, and consumers had more plans from which to choose. But the tax penalty for going without insurance will double.

[emphasis mine] http://www.factcheck.org/2015/01/obamas ... 15-update/

[rookiebatman]

You wrote:

The root of this discussion was the idea that conservatives can't possibly have any reason for hating Obama other than race.

Please show where I said this.

What you said was:

In lieu of an objective motive for such hate, one considers irrational motives like race hatred.

This statement implies (in my interpretation) that the reason you are considering irrational motives like race hatred is because there are no objective/rational motives for hating Obama. Did I interpret that incorrectly?