Racism, Alive and Well

[Danmark]

The 'liberal' media is talking about their claim that no Republican leaders are attending the 50th anniversary of the Selma march. This doesn't or shouldn't have anything to do with religion, but "liberals" and democrats and those who attend more liberal churches seem to be more sensitive to racial concerns and issues than "conservatives," Republicans, and the Christian right, So...

Many of us have appreciated at least our perception of how race relations have improved and how there is less noticed discrimination these days. That is why our group of 12 or so lawyers who meet weekly to discuss the latest cases from the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court were so incredulous reading the facts of a 2014 case you can read @ https://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/701282.pdf Our group is mostly "white" with two Latinos. Essentially the case was about one guy who complained about all the racist and sexist talk going on. The company fired him for complaining, not those engaging in the racist talk on a routine basis. The COA upheld the trial court's award of $600,969 in damages, attorney fees, and costs. I don't want to repeat the language that was used, but you can see it at the link provided.

So two questions for debate:
1. Have race relations really gotten much better in terms of the hearts and minds of Americans?
2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

[Divine Insight]

Not too sure about racism. But I think it should be obvious that the "Christian right" are going to be prejudiced about religious views and values.

And the Republican Party in general seems to have a mentality of "trickle down economy". This isn't racial, but it is a prejudice against poor people.

Prejudice is the wrong word, and it reinforces the point I made in my previous post. Just because someone disagrees with a certain viewpoint doesn't make them prejudiced. From reading your posts you seem to have very harsh words about Christianity. Does that make you prejudiced against Christians? I don't think you are, but according to everything you wrote above you are prejudiced against Christians.

I would argue that there is a big difference.

Yes, it's true that I don't accept the "moral values" of Christianity. As a religion that is based upon the Bible I personally feel that it (the Bible) teaches values and ideals that are actually quite immoral.

Now you could say that I'm "prejudiced" against the Biblical values. But I feel that would be an incorrect description. I would instead simply say that I disagree with those values and do not support them. I also argue (as you are no doubt aware) that I am convinced they came from no God.

However, when it comes to Christians (i.e. the mere followers of this religion) I do not feel that I am prejudiced. They are more than free to believe and behave however they do desire as far as I'm concerned (providing they aren't harming others).

But this is where the things change radically for the Christians (especially Christian legislators). They are attempting to put their moral beliefs into law forcing everyone else to behave in a way that they feel is suitable. They also seem to be more than willing to brand people as being "sinners" if they aren't behaving in a way that the Christians feel is acceptable. I would never do that to them. So I would not say that I'm prejudiced against Christians. If I were a legislator I would put into law only things that protect the citizens of the state. I wouldn't even think about putting my own personal moral values into law.

Also, "trickle down economy" can no longer work with today's technologies for many reasons which I would be glad to elaborate on if anyone thinks that "trickle down economy" is still a viable option in today's world. It's not.

Yes, please elaborate.

Trickle down won't work anymore for the very simple reason that today's technologies are designed specifically to be thrown away. They are not designed to be repaired. And even things that can be repaired require a lot of money to repair.

Take your standard automobile for example. Back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's you could keep an old car running for quite a long time. You could keep patching it up with relatively cheap parts. So the very poor people could take advantage of the left over "junk" from the rich people. In other words, a poor person could get through life with having never purchased a brand new car, and having keep and old worn-out car running for quite a long time. Trust me I know this very well because this is how I have lived.

However, things have changed dramatically. The newer cars are not repairable in this same way. Replacement parts are not cheap. And often times they aren't even within the reach of a do-it-yourself home mechanic. You often need highly specialized tools or equipment to repair a modern car.

Also, laws are more strict about what will pass inspection or be legal to drive on the road. It used to be if the exhaust system on your car failed you could just piece it together even using a cheap glass-pack muffler and you'd be back on the road. Not today. Today you need expensive catalytic converters, and your car must pass emission systems, etc. And the professionals who check these things won't pass make-shift repairs.

No don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we should ignore pollution control etc. I'm simply pointing out the fact that "trickle down" no longer works. Modern day technologies becomes basically unusable at a certain point. Leaving the poor people with nothing left to "scavenge". The "trickle down" has been CUT OFF.

I used, an automobile as an example here, but this applies to all modern day appliances. The home mechanic can't fix anything anymore. You can't fix washing machines, televisions, computers, etc. And when it comes to things like computers, and Internet technologies, when they become obsolete it wouldn't even matter if you could fix them. I actually have old computers that still run but they are basically useless because they aren't compatible with today's technologies.

Trickle down simply doesn't work anymore.

The idea that you can have large mega companies that hire a lot of people and call that "tickle-down" doesn't pan out. Because what you end up with is a bunch of workers who are basically being forced to either purchased brand new items, or pay extremely large repair bills to keep new technologies running. And they simply don't make enough money to keep up with that kind of pressure.

~~~~~~

In the end all I'm saying is that if we want to use a "trickle down" strategy for an economy, then we need to build that into our technologies. We need to design technologies that can be repaired and not become obsolete a few years after they have been manufactured.

Trickle-down could work. But only if the technologies are designed for that type of economy. Currently that's simply not the case. Manufactures not only make things that cannot be repaired but in many cases they actually design them to purposefully not be reparable.

They are cutting off the "trickle-down" effect.

You can't call it a "Trickle-down" economy if the people at the low end of the wage scale aren't making enough money to survive.

And when we cut out their ability to scavenge and repair "old junk" because the technologies simply aren't repairable or become obsolete and unusable. Then the poor people have no way to survive on their "peanut salaries".

They simply can't afford to keep up. So they become financially destitute, even though they might actually have a low-end job.

This is exactly what's happening. We are seeing WORKING PEOPLE who can't make ends meet. It's not that they aren't employed. They just can't keep up. And a large part of the reason is because the option to do things really cheaply has been removed. It's not longer an option for them.

So they end up having to spend BIG BUCKS just to try to survive when they only have "little bucks" coming in from their jobs.

Trust me, I know this from experience. I'm one of these people who make "little bucks" and it's getting worse every year. I have two cars (both are old pieces of junk). In fact, the reason I have two is in case one breaks down, which happens quite often. I do all my own repairs, and I still find myself struggling just to keep up with the high prices of replacement parts anymore. And I'm not even paying mechanics to do the labor. That would kill me if I couldn't do the the work myself.

So I have first hand experience of how "trickle down" is becoming extremely difficult to maintain.

If we want to do "trickle down" we need to change the way we manufacture things. They need to last longer and be cheaper to repair. But we're not doing that. On the contrary we're manufacturing things with "Throw-away" in mind instead of repair.

We can't design things to be thrown away, and expect to maintain a trickle-down economy too. These two things are incompatible.

Things can't "trickle-down" if they become useless, obsolete, or unrepairable.

You can't just think that money can trickle down. Goods need to trickle down too. Money trickling down alone doesn't do anyone any good.

A little bit of money is basically useless, if there doesn't also exist cheap junk to repair.

[Divine Insight]

I'm convinced racism is the main driving force behind the Obama haters. I'm not going to even argue the point. It's what I believe. I have faith. There's no other reason for their hatred. Pure racism, plain and simple.

I agree. The republicans appear to basically HATE our president. I think they are more interested in giving him a hard time than they are with the welfare of the United State of America.

It's disgusting how nasty they have been toward the president. It actually angers me immensely. They are supposed to be finding common solutions for the nation but instead all they can do is give Obama a hard time. It's detrimental to the nation. They are actually screwing the nation because of their hatred for Obama.

As an American I'm actually ashamed of how our government has demonstrated to the world how much internal hatred we can have for each other. What a disgusting example for the rest of the world. Democracy doesn't appear very inviting when all it amounts to is a government becoming gridlocked over petty things.

And it has to be the Republican's hatred for Obama that is driving this. It's disgusting. They never accepted that the American people chose Obama in the first place. The Republicans have basically been anti-American. They refuse to go with the flow of the American people.

[WinePusher]

I'm convinced racism is the main driving force behind the Obama haters. I'm not going to even argue the point. It's what I believe. I have faith. There's no other reason for their hatred. Pure racism, plain and simple.

There are a lot of ways I could counter this claim. I could point out that these 'Obama Haters' support people like Ben Carson and Clarence Thomas and Allen West, all of whom are black. Which means that Obama's race is not the reason why people 'hate' him. But, it's impossible to argue with your faith based opinion. It's like trying to argue with a radical Christian who believes gay people are the spawn of Satan. No amount of facts will dissuade them from their faith based beliefs.

And, no one is claiming that all Republicans or all conservatives or all Christians are racists. But when it comes to Republicans in general, that's the way to bet.

And this is the reason why public discourse has broken down in America.

[WinePusher]

I agree. The republicans appear to basically HATE our president. I think they are more interested in giving him a hard time than they are with the welfare of the United State of America.

Yea, some republicans do HATE Obama just as some democrats HATE Bush.

It's disgusting how nasty they have been toward the president. It actually angers me immensely. They are supposed to be finding common solutions for the nation but instead all they can do is give Obama a hard time. It's detrimental to the nation. They are actually screwing the nation because of their hatred for Obama.

The same thing can be said about the democrats under the Bush Administration. Do you not remember how frequently the democrats utilized the filibuster, even when it came to Bush's supreme court nominees? Have the republicans filibustered any of Obama's supreme court nominees? Nope. The minority party is supposed to act as the opposition. So please, don't make it seem as if it's only the republicans who give the president a hard time. The democrats did the same thing under Bush as they should have because that is their job. The job of the party in the minority is to oppose. That is how our legislative system is supposed to work.

As an American I'm actually ashamed of how our government has demonstrated to the world how much internal hatred we can have for each other. What a disgusting example for the rest of the world. Democracy doesn't appear very inviting when all it amounts to is a government becoming gridlocked over petty things.

And it has to be the Republican's hatred for Obama that is driving this. It's disgusting. They never accepted that the American people chose Obama in the first place. The Republicans have basically been anti-American. They refuse to go with the flow of the American people.

This doesn't make much sense. In 2010 the American people elected a majority of republicans in the House of Representatives. In 2014 the American people elected a majority of republicans in both the House of Representatives and the Senate. So, I'm not sure how to reconcile this fact with your claim that 'the republicans have basically been anti-American.'

[WinePusher]

Trickle down won't work anymore for the very simple reason that today's technologies are designed specifically to be thrown away. They are not designed to be repaired. And even things that can be repaired require a lot of money to repair.

Take your standard automobile for example. Back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's you could keep an old car running for quite a long time. You could keep patching it up with relatively cheap parts. So the very poor people could take advantage of the left over "junk" from the rich people. In other words, a poor person could get through life with having never purchased a brand new car, and having keep and old worn-out car running for quite a long time. Trust me I know this very well because this is how I have lived.

However, things have changed dramatically. The newer cars are not repairable in this same way. Replacement parts are not cheap. And often times they aren't even within the reach of a do-it-yourself home mechanic. You often need highly specialized tools or equipment to repair a modern car.

Also, laws are more strict about what will pass inspection or be legal to drive on the road. It used to be if the exhaust system on your car failed you could just piece it together even using a cheap glass-pack muffler and you'd be back on the road. Not today. Today you need expensive catalytic converters, and your car must pass emission systems, etc. And the professionals who check these things won't pass make-shift repairs.

No don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we should ignore pollution control etc. I'm simply pointing out the fact that "trickle down" no longer works. Modern day technologies becomes basically unusable at a certain point. Leaving the poor people with nothing left to "scavenge". The "trickle down" has been CUT OFF.

I used, an automobile as an example here, but this applies to all modern day appliances. The home mechanic can't fix anything anymore. You can't fix washing machines, televisions, computers, etc. And when it comes to things like computers, and Internet technologies, when they become obsolete it wouldn't even matter if you could fix them. I actually have old computers that still run but they are basically useless because they aren't compatible with today's technologies.

Trickle down simply doesn't work anymore.

The idea that you can have large mega companies that hire a lot of people and call that "tickle-down" doesn't pan out. Because what you end up with is a bunch of workers who are basically being forced to either purchased brand new items, or pay extremely large repair bills to keep new technologies running. And they simply don't make enough money to keep up with that kind of pressure.

~~~~~~

In the end all I'm saying is that if we want to use a "trickle down" strategy for an economy, then we need to build that into our technologies. We need to design technologies that can be repaired and not become obsolete a few years after they have been manufactured.

Trickle-down could work. But only if the technologies are designed for that type of economy. Currently that's simply not the case. Manufactures not only make things that cannot be repaired but in many cases they actually design them to purposefully not be reparable.

They are cutting off the "trickle-down" effect.

You can't call it a "Trickle-down" economy if the people at the low end of the wage scale aren't making enough money to survive.

And when we cut out their ability to scavenge and repair "old junk" because the technologies simply aren't repairable or become obsolete and unusable. Then the poor people have no way to survive on their "peanut salaries".

They simply can't afford to keep up. So they become financially destitute, even though they might actually have a low-end job.

This is exactly what's happening. We are seeing WORKING PEOPLE who can't make ends meet. It's not that they aren't employed. They just can't keep up. And a large part of the reason is because the option to do things really cheaply has been removed. It's not longer an option for them.

So they end up having to spend BIG BUCKS just to try to survive when they only have "little bucks" coming in from their jobs.

Trust me, I know this from experience. I'm one of these people who make "little bucks" and it's getting worse every year. I have two cars (both are old pieces of junk). In fact, the reason I have two is in case one breaks down, which happens quite often. I do all my own repairs, and I still find myself struggling just to keep up with the high prices of replacement parts anymore. And I'm not even paying mechanics to do the labor. That would kill me if I couldn't do the the work myself.

So I have first hand experience of how "trickle down" is becoming extremely difficult to maintain.

If we want to do "trickle down" we need to change the way we manufacture things. They need to last longer and be cheaper to repair. But we're not doing that. On the contrary we're manufacturing things with "Throw-away" in mind instead of repair.

We can't design things to be thrown away, and expect to maintain a trickle-down economy too. These two things are incompatible.

Things can't "trickle-down" if they become useless, obsolete, or unrepairable.

You can't just think that money can trickle down. Goods need to trickle down too. Money trickling down alone doesn't do anyone any good.

A little bit of money is basically useless, if there doesn't also exist cheap junk to repair.

I read your whole post and I came away with the following impressions:

First, I'm not sure what you mean by 'trickle down economics.' I think it'd be best for you to explain what you think this term means. In the actual literature there is no such theory known as 'trickle down economics.' It's a very vague term that essentially refers to any economic policy that recommends less taxes on the entrepreneurs and less regulation on business. The idea is that since entrepreneurs and businesses are the engines that drive the economy, it would only make sense to not interfere with their affairs. If we allow entrepreneurs and businesses to act as they see fit, without overtaxing and overregulating them, then they will create wealth and income for people in all classes of society. By creating a business the entrepreneur has enriched himself, but he has also enriched the lives of hundreds of other people by providing them with jobs and with goods and services. Trickle down theory simply says that we should not overtax this businessman and we should not overregulate his business. That's all trickle down theory is.

Second, you spent a considerable amount of time talking about technology and I'm not sure I understood it all. Yes, new technologies are constantly being created and as a result they render the old technologies obsolete. This is a good thing because it means that the economy is undergoing innovation. Additionally, people do not need to buy every new car model that comes out. I've driven the same car for the past several years and so have many people I know. If you go out on the road you'll see a bunch of old, used cars. So, there are options for poor people to buy used things they can afford. Our economy is not at a point where poor people are forced to buy new, expensive things.

[Danmark]

I'm convinced racism is the main driving force behind the Obama haters. I'm not going to even argue the point. It's what I believe. I have faith. There's no other reason for their hatred. Pure racism, plain and simple.

There are a lot of ways I could counter this claim. I could point out that these 'Obama Haters' support people like Ben Carson and Clarence Thomas and Allen West, all of whom are black. Which means that Obama's race is not the reason why people 'hate' him. But, it's impossible to argue with your faith based opinion. It's like trying to argue with a radical Christian who believes gay people are the spawn of Satan. No amount of facts will dissuade them from their faith based beliefs.

And, no one is claiming that all Republicans or all conservatives or all Christians are racists. But when it comes to Republicans in general, that's the way to bet.

And this is the reason why public discourse has broken down in America.

There is no way you can counter my claim. It is a matter of faith.

Racists have always liked their Uncle Tom's, especially those with obvious intellectual deficits like West and Thomas. The Stockholm syndrome may account for them.

[rookiebatman]

I'm convinced racism is the main driving force behind the Obama haters. I'm not going to even argue the point. It's what I believe. I have faith. There's no other reason for their hatred. Pure racism, plain and simple.

*headslap* Not you too! I'm shocked and disappointed to see you take up such an admittedly dogmatic position that, in my opinion, simply confounds rationality (which you almost don't seem to be denying). I have two questions to challenge your faith:

1) Think of all the 42 other men who have been President of the United States. Do you think anyone felt hatred toward those people? If so, were all of these "haters" racist toward white people, or might there have been other perfectly good explanations for why someone would feel hatred toward a president whose policies and positions they disagreed with?

1a) Have you yourself ever felt any kind of hatred toward any former president, and if so, was that motivated by "pure racism?"

2) Isn't it just as possible that people hate Obama purely because he's a Democrat, and not purely because he's black?

[rookiebatman]

I agree. The republicans appear to basically HATE our president. I think they are more interested in giving him a hard time than they are with the welfare of the United State of America.

It's disgusting how nasty they have been toward the president. It actually angers me immensely. They are supposed to be finding common solutions for the nation but instead all they can do is give Obama a hard time. It's detrimental to the nation. They are actually screwing the nation because of their hatred for Obama.

And you don't think Obama's ever been nasty to them, or just gave them a hard time when he should've been finding a common solution?

Sometimes I kinda wonder if Democrats' idea of "finding a common solution" is "just doing whatever Obama wants." Finding a common solution is a two-way street. Can you show me some examples of Obama finding a common solution?

The Republicans have basically been anti-American. They refuse to go with the flow of the American people.

Like, the American people that voted in a Republican majority last year?
EDIT: Winepusher beat me to it.

[rookiebatman]

The minority party is supposed to act as the opposition. So please, don't make it seem as if it's only the republicans who give the president a hard time. The democrats did the same thing under Bush as they should have because that is their job. The job of the party in the minority is to oppose. That is how our legislative system is supposed to work.

This cannot be emphasized enough. I remember learning about "checks and balances" in school, and the minority party acting as the opposition is a huge part of that.

[rookiebatman]

Racists have always liked their Uncle Tom's, especially those with obvious intellectual deficits like West and Thomas. The Stockholm syndrome may account for them.

Now, let's review. Is a Democrat or a Republican accusing prominent black people of having "obvious intellectual deficits?"

Danmark, how would you feel if a Republican said to you, the only way you could think those people have intellectual deficits is if you're a racist?