Racism, Alive and Well

[Danmark]

The 'liberal' media is talking about their claim that no Republican leaders are attending the 50th anniversary of the Selma march. This doesn't or shouldn't have anything to do with religion, but "liberals" and democrats and those who attend more liberal churches seem to be more sensitive to racial concerns and issues than "conservatives," Republicans, and the Christian right, So...

Many of us have appreciated at least our perception of how race relations have improved and how there is less noticed discrimination these days. That is why our group of 12 or so lawyers who meet weekly to discuss the latest cases from the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court were so incredulous reading the facts of a 2014 case you can read @ https://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/701282.pdf Our group is mostly "white" with two Latinos. Essentially the case was about one guy who complained about all the racist and sexist talk going on. The company fired him for complaining, not those engaging in the racist talk on a routine basis. The COA upheld the trial court's award of $600,969 in damages, attorney fees, and costs. I don't want to repeat the language that was used, but you can see it at the link provided.

So two questions for debate:
1. Have race relations really gotten much better in terms of the hearts and minds of Americans?
2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

[rookiebatman]

2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

I'm politically moderate myself, but my whole family is conservative (as are various other friends I had back when I was a Christian), and not a blessed one of them is racist, as far as I've ever seen. So, I always bristle when I hear comments like this (though I'm glad it's in the form of a question this time), because I know so many people in the Republican Party who are not racist. So, I think one important point of distinction that needs to be made is, when you say "the Republican Party," do you mean elected officials with Republican Party affiliation, or the rank-and-file voters as well? If you're talking about the latter, I don't think I can be convinced that "the Republican party in general is more racist," because again, I know just too darned many people who are Republicans and are not racist.

Another clarification that might help is whether subconscious racist tendencies are being considered. There have been some tests and polls concocted lately to determine not whether people identify as having bad feelings toward people of other races, but whether there's some subconscious feeling they have that they might not even be aware of. Quite frankly, I think this is rubbish. Subconscious racism is the natural consequence (note the negative connotation of the word choice) of there having been so much active racism in the past; that is not any of our faults. The only thing we're able to control are our own actions; we can't control what bad ideas other people tried to pass onto us. Therefore, I contend that people should be judged only by what they do and say and consciously think, not whether some vestige of racism is hiding out in the dark corners of their subconscious mind.

In closing, I'll leave you with this quote by Penn Jillette, who was responding to claims by Seth MacFarlane that the Tea Party was racist. He said, “If it’s a racist organization, it says it’s racist. If you say they’re racist but they don’t admit it, you are claiming to look into someone else’s heart, and I believe claiming that is a wrong thing to do.�
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14q_1NlhE9I

[Divine Insight]

1. Have race relations really gotten much better in terms of the hearts and minds of Americans?

I would say that it has definitely gotten better over the years. But it clearly hasn't been totally eradicated.

One thing I would like to say is that "Cultural Diversity" is a strange thing. I once worked for a major company that required that we all attend a "Cultural Diversity" seminar. There was no question that this was about "Racial Discrimination". They openly used this term in their flyers and communication concerning this seminar.

Some of my coworkers had attended the seminar before I did and when they returned from it they said, "If you aren't a racist before you go to this seminar you will be one when you leave".When I actually attended the seminar I saw exactly what they were talking about.

The seminar was being presented by a black man. And all he talked about was the "Black Community" and how the "Black Community" deserves respect and should be recognized and respected as a valid community, etc.

The problem I have with this whole approach to "racism" is that this seems to just aggravate the problem. How can people expect to stop segregation and racism by demanding that we define ourselves as belonging to either the "White Community" or the "Black Community". It seems to me that this is demanding that we all become racists and choose which of these two communities we want to belong to.

So sometimes the approach to "Racial Discrimination" seems to actually be demanding that we support segregation.

It's no doubt a difficult problem to address. The mere recognition that racism exists suggests that there are indeed difference races to oppose each other.

So it seems to be an inherently difficult problem. To even discuss the problem requires a recognition that there exist different "races".

It seems to me a far better approach would be to try to convince people that we are all humans regardless of our physical characteristic.

Screaming about making distinctions between "The White Community" and "The Black Community" seems to only intensify the problem.

2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

Not too sure about racism. But I think it should be obvious that the "Christian right" are going to be prejudiced about religious views and values.

And the Republican Party in general seems to have a mentality of "trickle down economy". This isn't racial, but it is a prejudice against poor people.

Also, "trickle down economy" can no longer work with today's technologies for many reasons which I would be glad to elaborate on if anyone thinks that "trickle down economy" is still a viable option in today's world. It's not.

[WinePusher]

1. Have race relations really gotten much better in terms of the hearts and minds of Americans?

Clearly you don't think so. Apparently in your mind racism is still alive and well. But objectively, race relations have improved significantly since the 1960s and hopefully they will continue to improve. Unfortunately, this comes as a detriment to liberals who utilize racism as a means to advance their agenda.

2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

To liberals, any argument against the reduction of welfare or food stamps will be perceived as racist. Additionally, anybody who doesn't support the conviction of George Zimmerman or Darren Wilson will also be labeled as racist. I used to think that the left called people racist because they wanted to avoid debating the actual issue at hand, as it is much easier to throw around ad hominem's and smear a persons character rather than debate logically and rationally. However, it seems that these people actually, genuinely believe that anybody who doesn't agree with their views are racist. It's impossible to have a rational debate with a person who gets all emotional and starts calling you a racist, and unfortunately this is the point we're at in America.

[WinePusher]

Not too sure about racism. But I think it should be obvious that the "Christian right" are going to be prejudiced about religious views and values.

And the Republican Party in general seems to have a mentality of "trickle down economy". This isn't racial, but it is a prejudice against poor people.

Prejudice is the wrong word, and it reinforces the point I made in my previous post. Just because someone disagrees with a certain viewpoint doesn't make them prejudiced. From reading your posts you seem to have very harsh words about Christianity. Does that make you prejudiced against Christians? I don't think you are, but according to everything you wrote above you are prejudiced against Christians.

Also, "trickle down economy" can no longer work with today's technologies for many reasons which I would be glad to elaborate on if anyone thinks that "trickle down economy" is still a viable option in today's world. It's not.

Yes, please elaborate.

[rookiebatman]

1. Have race relations really gotten much better in terms of the hearts and minds of Americans?

Clearly you don't think so. Apparently in your mind racism is still alive and well. But objectively, race relations have improved significantly since the 1960s and hopefully they will continue to improve. Unfortunately, this comes as a detriment to liberals who utilize racism as a means to advance their agenda.

2. Is there evidence the Christian Right and the Republican party in general is more racist, or less inclined to be sympathetic to matters that involve racial discrimination?

To liberals, any argument against the reduction of welfare or food stamps will be perceived as racist. Additionally, anybody who doesn't support the conviction of George Zimmerman or Darren Wilson will also be labeled as racist. I used to think that the left called people racist because they wanted to avoid debating the actual issue at hand, as it is much easier to throw around ad hominem's and smear a persons character rather than debate logically and rationally. However, it seems that these people actually, genuinely believe that anybody who doesn't agree with their views are racist. It's impossible to have a rational debate with a person who gets all emotional and starts calling you a racist, and unfortunately this is the point we're at in America.

I gotta say, I'm a big fan of Danmark, but I kind of agree with this. I used to get into more political debates on a different forum, and a lot of this does ring true with my experiences. There was one particular incident when I was discussing whether a certain entity was racist or not, and when something happened that I felt proved conclusively that the entity was not racist, I said something like, "this will shut up the PC Police," because I felt like people had been nitpicking this entity without sufficient cause in the first place. Boy, did I get taken behind the woodshed for that one. Even after I admitted that "PC Police" was a poor choice of words and apologized for it, I was informed that when I said "this will shut up the PC Police," what I really meant (because they apparently know my thoughts better than I do) is "this will shut up women and minorities." Incidents like that did kinda give me a soured impression of how much certain types of liberals really care about equality, and left me wondering if championing the cause of equality is really just an alternate way of feeling superior to other people (in some cases).

But still, I'm here to be exposed to alternate viewpoints, so I look forward to hearing Danmark's reply, and will make every effort to process it with an open mind.

[rookiebatman]

Prejudice is the wrong word, and it reinforces the point I made in my previous post. Just because someone disagrees with a certain viewpoint doesn't make them prejudiced. From reading your posts you seem to have very harsh words about Christianity. Does that make you prejudiced against Christians? I don't think you are, but according to everything you wrote above you are prejudiced against Christians.

In fairness, while I don't believe my family is racist, I do believe that some of them (the more ultra-conservative ones) are legitimately prejudiced against homosexuals. My dad has stated openly that if he were in a situation where he had to choose between a straight candidate and a gay candidate, given comparable qualifications, he would unhesitatingly pick the straight candidate, because he considers homosexuality to be a weakness of moral fiber or a character flaw. To me, saying that you wouldn't hire somebody based on a characteristic (which has nothing to do with your ability to do the job), with all other factors being equal, is the textbook definition of being prejudiced against that characteristic. So I don't think it's unfair to say that Christians can be prejudiced against other things, especially if they perceive them to be immoral.

But this is about racism, not sexual orientation, so I guess I should stop before I derail the thread any further.

[WinePusher]

I gotta say, I'm a big fan of Danmark, but I kind of agree with this. I used to get into more political debates on a different forum, and a lot of this does ring true with my experiences. There was one particular incident when I was discussing whether a certain entity was racist or not, and when something happened that I felt proved conclusively that the entity was not racist, I said something like, "this will shut up the PC Police," because I felt like people had been nitpicking this entity without sufficient cause in the first place. Boy, did I get taken behind the woodshed for that one. Even after I admitted that "PC Police" was a poor choice of words and apologized for it, I was informed that when I said "this will shut up the PC Police," what I really meant (because they apparently know my thoughts better than I do) is "this will shut up women and minorities." Incidents like that did kinda give me a soured impression of how much certain types of liberals really care about equality, and left me wondering if championing the cause of equality is really just an alternate way of feeling superior to other people (in some cases).

But still, I'm here to be exposed to alternate viewpoints, so I look forward to hearing Danmark's reply, and will make every effort to process it with an open mind.

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, I can understand why many people from the African American community get so outraged when young African American males are killed by police and automatically convict the cop of malicious intent. There is clearly a history in America (during the mid 1900s) of racist cops harassing and killing innocent black males, and people would be justified to see the killing of Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown and the African American male in New York (I forgot his name) as being residuals from this era. The amount of unarmed black males that have been killed by cops has disturbed me as well, as well as the many instances of police brutality against minorities.

However, I get turned off the moment I see one of the 'civil rights leaders' or one of these democratic politicians on TV trying to exacerbate the problem for their own gain. I get even more turned off when these same people characterize a republican argument against something like rent control, welfare and minimum wages as racist.

So, liberals would have a very valid argument concerning the overreaches and corruption of police departments, and even about how minorities are disproportionately targeted and incarcerated for crimes that white people commit at even higher rates. BUT, they destroy their own credibility by engaging in these shoddy debate tactics and by blaming all the problems of the African American community on the white establishment.

For example, when it came to the Michael Brown situation I was on the fence about it. Clearly, Michael Brown did not deserve to die and Darren Wilson should have been more severely punished for his actions. BUT, the way the African American community was characterizing Michael Brown as a 'gentle giant' was laughable. The guy robbed a store and shoved around the clerk like a punk. Obviously he didn't deserve to die for this, but he was not a 'gentle giant.'

[rookiebatman]

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, I can understand why many people from the African American community get so outraged when young African American males are killed by police and automatically convict the cop of malicious intent. There is clearly a history in America (during the mid 1900s) of racist cops harassing and killing innocent black males, and people would be justified to see the killing of Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown and the African American male in New York (I forgot his name) as being residuals from this era. The amount of unarmed black males that have been killed by cops has disturbed me as well, as well as the many instances of police brutality against minorities.

This is definitely a separate topic, but I (a white guy) have kinda been the victim of police brutality myself, so I tend to think that the issue is more about law enforcement people being impotent bullies who need some outlet to feel better than other people. I think this explains the George Zimmerman case very well, given the kind of trouble he's gotten into since Trayvon Martin's death. And I think there are a lot of cases where you can clearly see that a person got beat up because the cops were peeved that somebody was making their working day a little more difficult. On the other hand, I did recently read an article that a bunch of racist emails or some such were found in the federal investigation of the Ferguson PD. On the other other hand, the investigation was conducted by Eric Holder, who's far from impartial on the subject.

So, I guess what it comes down to is, it's certainly a very complex issue, but I don't think it's enough to hold racism solely responsible for the problems of police brutality in America. I think that hiring practices that fail to screen out bullies who like to throw their weight around is as big, if not even a bigger problem. Along the same lines, if police officers really took the idea of "protect and serve" to heart, as opposed to their current motto, which seems to be "protect ourselves" (against threats real or imagined), then I think a lot of things would change as well. It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but police officers have just as much duty to protect and serve people who have instinctive, human, fearful reactions to being accosted by cops. If police officers truly were protecting and serving the people they think might possibly be "perps," then this wouldn't be as big a problem.

[Danmark]

I'm convinced racism is the main driving force behind the Obama haters. I'm not going to even argue the point. It's what I believe. I have faith. There's no other reason for their hatred. Pure racism, plain and simple.

And, no one is claiming that all Republicans or all conservatives or all Christians are racists. But when it comes to Republicans in general, that's the way to bet.

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gab_racism.htm