Illegal Immigration Pt. 2

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I just have to bring this back up.

A sequel to the former topic:



Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

Is it reasonable to demand thousands of dollars in naturalization fees from migrants fleeing $80 work weeks? No or no?

[McCulloch]

Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

I for one would oppose building a fence across the southern border. I have many American friends and would not be opposed to their free passage into our country. Just keep your guns back home. Besides we have been a welcome haven to United Empire Loyalists, escaped slaves, Viet Nam draft dogers and now soldiers who do not wish to fight the war in Iraq. Good Canadian citizens.

[Cephus]

Well, they pay for themselves, don't they? They are coming here to work ("take our jobs"), that's what I hear. And since we've seen a few cases recently where companies have been raided because the social security numbers on their payroll taxes don't match up to any living person it seems that they are contributing without withdrawing.

Obviously they don't pay for themselves or hospitals wouldn't be going out of business under the strain of illegals getting free services. Schools wouldn't be overcrowded by massive numbers of people who don't speak English. The jails wouldn't be filled to bursting by 30% illegals. The roads wouldn't be clogged by millions of people who have no business being here in the first place.

BTW: You know as well as I do that those few "raids" were just for show, a publicity stunt designed to show how hard the government is working against illegal immigration. We both also know that in both of the raids, every single illegal that was caught was released, never to be seen again.

[juliod]

Obviously they don't pay for themselves or hospitals wouldn't be going out of business under the strain of illegals getting free services. Schools wouldn't be overcrowded by massive numbers of people who don't speak English. The jails wouldn't be filled to bursting by 30% illegals. The roads wouldn't be clogged by millions of people who have no business being here in the first place.

Sounds like you've identified a real, actual problem there: underinvestment in health, education and infrastructure.

We've known about those problems for what, 40 years?

Stopping all illegal immigration might make a slight difference, until population growth wiped out the savings. But that would require a serious effort, like my suggestion. Merely twiddling the system a little will make no difference.

Of course, using the $150 billion/year that the illegals are giving us to build schools and hospitals (and a public transport system) would benefit all of us.

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Obviously they don't pay for themselves or hospitals wouldn't be going out of business under the strain of illegals getting free services. Schools wouldn't be overcrowded by massive numbers of people who don't speak English. The jails wouldn't be filled to bursting by 30% illegals. The roads wouldn't be clogged by millions of people who have no business being here in the first place.

Oh me oh my, those pesky little poverty stricken individuals are such a burden, arn't they?

Don't you wish they could just dissappear? The government sure does. Every insignifigant little penny they have to spend mantaining a poor portion of the population is a penny they don't get to spend on more important endeavors; like building up a nuclear arsenal powerful enough to pulverize Jupiter.

Their solution is much the same as most every other addressment to world hunger throughout history- push them away from sight, move them south of the border, pretend they don't exist. Whatever it takes, so long as us privilidged individuals don't have to inconvenience ourselves in any way on account of their presence.

I mean, come on! I'm trying to live the American dream here! I can't be paying extra tax money just so less fortunate people can have access to similar opportunities. I haven't finished financing my other sportscar, and I still need to buy that vacation condo!

Of course, if such individuals didn't have to sneak in to the country and live off $3 an hour, we might not have anything to worry about.

Cephus, did you know that a naturalized citizen;

(A) Pays for the health care resources he/she expends via tax dollars
(B) Is guaranteed minimum wage, lessening or abolishing altogether his/her need for government welfare
and (C) Is statistically much less prone to revert to crime.


But of course, naturalizing everyone who crosses the border is much too easy, and makes far too much sense. No, better stick with the fence idea. We wouldn't want anyone to actually benefit from the outcome. People might start to call America the "land of opportunity"...

[Cephus]

Sounds like you've identified a real, actual problem there: underinvestment in health, education and infrastructure.

There wouldn't be a problem if these services weren't being overrun by millions of people who have absolutely no right to use them, would there?

[juliod]

There wouldn't be a problem if these services weren't being overrun by millions of people who have absolutely no right to use them, would there?

Do you see some reason that our underinvestment in health, education and infrastructure is not scaled to the demand?

If we need 100 hospitals, we build 80. If we only needed 80, we'd build 64. We'd have exactly the same degree of underinvestment.

absolutely no right to use them

I wonder how you acquired that attitude? I mean, last year I went on a trip to Brazil, a "third-world" country. The information I recieved was that the hospitals were pretty good, and free for all, including tourists. What does it say that a poorer country is more generous than a richer one?

Why do you think our greed-based healthcare system is "good" and needs to be protected from "them"? I pay a hefty fee every two weeks, with matching funds from my employer, and a co-pay when I need care. That adds up to a phenomenal amount of money going to the healthcare industry, which is famously the most expensive in the world while patently failing to provide even near-universal coverage.

So, like I said, you've identified a real problem, but illegal immigrants aren't more than a trivial contribution to it. And I note that you again failed to consider the employment taxes (including income tax, Medicare, and Social Security) that is paid on behalf of the illegals and from which they cannot benefit.

DanZ

[Jose]

I don't seem to remember anything from history textbooks about the English or the Spanish asking permission to immigrate in the first centuries after Columbus's voyage. Did I miss something? The whole dang USA was founded by illegal immigrants.

I don't see any of the anti-immigration crowd clamoring for higher prices. Nor do I see them fighting for jobs in the produce-harvesting industry. Instead, they seem to say "now that I'm here, let's block further immigration."

Nor do I see how a fence is going to impact the flood of undocumented immigrants from Eastern Europe (or elsewhere) who are smuggled through our ports to serve in various low-paying jobs that, again, the anti-immigrant folks aren't clamoring to do.

[Cephus]

I don't seem to remember anything from history textbooks about the English or the Spanish asking permission to immigrate in the first centuries after Columbus's voyage. Did I miss something? The whole dang USA was founded by illegal immigrants.

Only because immigration laws didn't exist at the time. They do today. You can't be an illegal immigrant if you're not breaking the law.

I don't see any of the anti-immigration crowd clamoring for higher prices.

Most would willingly pay more to have the jobs done by Americans. Besides, the whole thing is a sham, prices would rise by a couple of cents here and there but be largely unaffected.

Nor do I see them fighting for jobs in the produce-harvesting industry.

Again, it's a sham. Over 90% of the jobs in the agricultural industry are already done by Americans. So much for "jobs Americans won't do", it's already jobs Americans *DO*!

Yet more lies from the pro-illegal groups.

Nor do I see how a fence is going to impact the flood of undocumented immigrants from Eastern Europe (or elsewhere) who are smuggled through our ports to serve in various low-paying jobs that, again, the anti-immigrant folks aren't clamoring to do.

There just isn't the flood of illegals coming from Europe or Canada that there is from Mexico at the moment. We all agree we need a comprehensive policy that controls illegal immigration no matter where they're coming from.

But don't tell the pro-illegal crowd, then they couldn't keep lying and claiming it's all somehow racist.

[juliod]

Over 90% of the jobs in the agricultural industry are already done by Americans. So much for "jobs Americans won't do", it's already jobs Americans *DO*!

Fine, so what's the problem? If immigrants (legal or illegal) are only 10% of the work force in agriculture, why should we be spending time worrying about it?

I honestly don't see what your point of view is. And since you are an atheist I am sure you have a good point there somewhere. PP has suggested letting them all in. I have suggested bringing the troops back from Iraq to secure the borders in a serious concerted effort. You object to both.

You haven't clearly explained what the problem is. And you haven't suggested a solution to it. I've challenged your grievances against the migrants, and you haven't made a reply.

This leaves you open to charges of racism. In the media, the people most concerned about immigrant are (by and large) clearly motivated by racism. But let's be clear. My username not withstanding (I'm not "julio") no one hates hispanics more than I do. I lived in Spanish Harlem for 7 years during graduate school. Nasty place. But that doesn't mean I can see any significant reason to limit or harass immigrants.

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Only because immigration laws didn't exist at the time. They do today. You can't be an illegal immigrant if you're not breaking the law.

When law trumps logic.

Greedy Europeans migrating to America, stealing Indian land, raping their women, enslaving their children? What's the problem? There's no law against it!

On the other hand, Mexicans with a hungry family to feed crossing the border to work hard and long for little money? AN COMPLETE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!!! I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT!!!

I have been hearing this sort of counter-argument a lot. If feeding hungry orphans was an act punishable by law, law and order conservatives would provide the noose.

"Laws are laws..."

Most would willingly pay more to have the jobs done by Americans.

Just not Mexican Americans (as would happen under my plan).

Gee, and to think there are cries of racism.

Over 90% of the jobs in the agricultural industry are already done by Americans.

Think about how easily it would be to Americanize that other 10%.....

"No Mr. Rodriquez, we have done away with those silly naturalization fees and history courses. Just sign right here and you will be good to go."

I don't get it. Does my plan make too much sense to be feasible? Should I throw in a few thousand national guard troops to even it out?

But don't tell the pro-illegal crowd, then they couldn't keep lying and claiming it's all somehow racist.

A well-to-do white Canadian with thousands of dollars to spend and nothing better to do than memorize Eleanor Roosevelt's maiden name and other such trivia for the next five years? "Come on in, we'll get you started..."

But an unemployed shirtless wetback with 10 kids to feed....

Racism? Why, I would never!

My username not withstanding (I'm not "julio") no one hates hispanics more than I do. I lived in Spanish Harlem for 7 years during graduate school. Nasty place.

I think you will find that most poor neighborhoods (inadvertant of race) are rather nasty.

Ever spend time around a white trailer park? Black inner-city ghetto?