THE FLAG AND THE CROSS

[Choir Loft]

"In the United States many churches display the American flag. The Christian flag is usually put on one side and the American flag on the other. Does having two flags in your church mean that Christianity and the American establishment are equal? If it does, you are really in trouble."
- Francis Schaeffer

Mr. Schaeffer is regarded as a foremost Christian philosopher, theologian and film maker of the mid-twentieth century. He authored several insightful books and established the L'Abri community in Switzerland.

The following is a quote from US flag.org, a site specializing in US flag etiquette.

"When on display, the flag is accorded the place of honor, always positioned to its own right. Place it to the right of the speaker or staging area or sanctuary. Other flags should be to the left...."

While Christians and atheists often argue over metaphysical and moral philosophies, there seems to be a singular lack of political savey on the part of the Church community - especially evangelicals.

If one visits a protestant church, the US flag is usually placed on a flag stand at extreme stage right (on the platform facing the congregation or audience). All other flags and symbols are placed to the left of the flag.

The placement of the flag at the extreme right in church symbolizes its important position above all other symbols and flags including but not limited to the cross, altar and the pulpit.

My point here is that Christians are either ignorant of the meaning of political symbolism in their houses of worship or they support it.

Is the cross and the Christian God LESS important than the US flag? If symbolism in church is to be believed and understood properly - it IS. What is symbolism in a religion if not the very life blood and force of its creed and behavior?

As a result, protestant evangelical Christians have a somewhat twisted idea of what is politically important and what is not - including but not limited to US politics taking precedence over the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself.

MY QUESTION today is this? Does the reader acknowledge that the placement of the US flag in church symbolizes the superiority of the flag over the cross - of the US government over God?

Putting personal bias aside, is this what the placement of symbols in church means? As a test I've asked Christians and non-believer friends. Christians give me a blank stare. Non-believers seem to think its an silly question. "Weren't we taught that in 3rd grade?" some say.

"It must be taught that patriotic loyalty MUST NOT be identified with Christianity."
- Francis Schaeffer

What do you say, dear reader? Are 21st century Christians more politically fanatical than religiously oriented?

Personally, it seems to me that when a group worships Ronald Reagan as a demigod and insists that the platform of one political party is superior to reason and doctrine they've abandoned their own basic principles of religion.

American Christians have denied Christ - politically speaking.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Divine Insight]

American Christians have denied Christ - politically speaking.

Does it matter?

American Christians have been hypocrites since day one. They treated the American Indian natives as "savages" instead of as brothers as Christ would have them do.

American Christians would go to church and worship Jesus whilst their African slaves were out picking cotton on their plantations.

American Christians worship money over Christ. And when do their every do anything he preached? How many Christians do you know who give all their money to the poor and take no though of the morrow?

American Christians have been hypocrites from the beginning of American history.

If Christians were like Christ they would support communism and they'd be living in communes in a very meek way. In fact, they wouldn't even toil, sow, or reap, because like Jesus says, God feeds the birds and how much more would he do for his own children?

Christians don't do anything the Christ taught.

Moreover, they don't listen to the Father God of Christianity either. In the Old Testament the Father God commands to Moses:

Exodus 20:
[24] An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
[25] And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
[26] Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

How many Christian Churches are made of hewn stone with steps leading up to the altar?

Christians have never obeyed the commandments of their God ever.

And here you are worried about where they are going to put the American Flag.

What's the difference? They already totally reject both Jesus and the Father God of their religion. They are hypocrites of infinite degree.

They would all be poor people living in the fields waiting for God to feed them like he feeds the birds if they actually believed in Jesus.

Nary a one of them would be a farmer or concerned with sowing and reaping crops into barns. Nary a one of them would be concerned with money, or clothes or even education. Education itself is taking thought of the morrow, especially if the point of the education is to earn a degree. That would be taking thought of the morrow which Jesus taught we ought not do.

Christians should be living extremely simple lives in the fields waiting for God to feed them like he supposedly feeds the birds.

They certainly shouldn't be building churches out of hewn stone with steps leading up to the altar. That's strictly forbidden by their Father God.

Seeking higher education, for a lucrative Job and retirement security also goes against Jesus' teachings that we should take no thought of the morrow.

Christians should have given away all of their possessions to the poor and they should just be standing around in a field somewhere waiting for God to feed them like he supposedly feeds the birds.

These people don't take Jesus seriously at all.

[Choir Loft]

American Christians have denied Christ - politically speaking.

Does it matter?

American Christians have been hypocrites since day one. They treated the American Indian natives as "savages" instead of as brothers as Christ would have them do.

American Christians would go to church and worship Jesus whilst their African slaves were out picking cotton on their plantations.

American Christians worship money over Christ. And when do their every do anything he preached? How many Christians do you know who give all their money to the poor and take no though of the morrow?

American Christians have been hypocrites from the beginning of American history.

If Christians were like Christ they would support communism and they'd be living in communes in a very meek way. In fact, they wouldn't even toil, sow, or reap, because like Jesus says, God feeds the birds and how much more would he do for his own children?

Christians don't do anything the Christ taught.

Moreover, they don't listen to the Father God of Christianity either. In the Old Testament the Father God commands to Moses:

Exodus 20:
[24] An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
[25] And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
[26] Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

How many Christian Churches are made of hewn stone with steps leading up to the altar?

Christians have never obeyed the commandments of their God ever.

And here you are worried about where they are going to put the American Flag.

What's the difference? They already totally reject both Jesus and the Father God of their religion. They are hypocrites of infinite degree.

They would all be poor people living in the fields waiting for God to feed them like he feeds the birds if they actually believed in Jesus.

Nary a one of them would be a farmer or concerned with sowing and reaping crops into barns. Nary a one of them would be concerned with money, or clothes or even education. Education itself is taking thought of the morrow, especially if the point of the education is to earn a degree. That would be taking thought of the morrow which Jesus taught we ought not do.

Christians should be living extremely simple lives in the fields waiting for God to feed them like he supposedly feeds the birds.

They certainly shouldn't be building churches out of hewn stone with steps leading up to the altar. That's strictly forbidden by their Father God.

Seeking higher education, for a lucrative Job and retirement security also goes against Jesus' teachings that we should take no thought of the morrow.

Christians should have given away all of their possessions to the poor and they should just be standing around in a field somewhere waiting for God to feed them like he supposedly feeds the birds.

These people don't take Jesus seriously at all.

Wow. Tell us how you really feel. You forgot the Vegas style dog and pony show entertainment extravaganza every Sunday morning (with coffee and donuts from the coffee shop in the lobby).

On the serious side, I'd kind of like to restrict the discussion to political hypocrisy rather than cultural religious etc etc etc. You have a lot of information and I'd like read some of it - politically, current events, etc etc etc.

Seriously. You forget to vote. Please go back and vote. thank you

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Divine Insight]

I voted as per your request.

[Kuan]

Can we vote that neither is superior to the other? If anything I would vote the American flag, but nationalism and patriotism just cause more problems.

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to Kuan]

I can try to modify the poll. How would you phrase an additional question?

Patriotism & nationalism ought to be separate matters in the mind of the citizen/believer. Too often they are not. In reality there is too much blur. Nonbelievers do not suffer this tension. To them the issue is clearer.

If the reader is a Christian, ought not the cross be greater than the flag? if not, why not?

If the reader is not a believer, how do you perceive this inability of a believer to define the difference between the cross & the flag to impact the sincerity of the gospel message?

And that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.

[Kuan]

[Replying to post 6 by Choir Loft]
Maybe a neutral option, neither is superior to the other? Although the US flag holds more importance to me, i wouldnt say it is superior to the cross or any other symbol.

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to post 6 by Choir Loft]
Maybe a neutral option, neither is superior to the other? Although the US flag holds more importance to me, i wouldnt say it is superior to the cross or any other symbol.

My apologies, but it seems that the poll questions cannot be altered once the thread has begun.


If any reader knows how to do that, I'd appreciate hearing from you....

[Kuan]

[Replying to Choir Loft]
Thats alright, im pretty sure you cant, in fact i was surprised when you said you could change the poll!

But thats my vote, neither are superior albeit the US flag has more meaning to me than the cross.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Choir Loft]
Thats alright, im pretty sure you cant, in fact i was surprised when you said you could change the poll!

But thats my vote, neither are superior albeit the US flag has more meaning to me than the cross.

Answering "No" doesn't necessarily imply that the US flag is superior to anything. All it says is that the Christian Cross is not superior to the US flag.