New World Order

[Anselm]

http://www.ngteam.org/NWO.htm
Is the revelation of New World Order heresy or the strategy of the church of the Last Days? What are your opinions?

[Anselm]

I suppose that you have evidence to back up this claim

In the US kids aged 11-14 y.o. have special classes on homosexuality. That course is imposed on "from the top". The head of federal education cannot be ignorat of those classes.

And the Bible-believers are the ones who get to decide which religion is a threat to society and which religions are not. Your concept of a Christian Democratic state is flawed. It must either be a Christian theocracy which tramples on the rights of non-believers or a Democracy which allows for toleration of various points of view unless they can be objectively shown to be dangerous.

I prefer Christian theocracy which tramples on the rights of occultists, gays, pimps, drug dealers, gangsters, islamic terrorists, pedophiles and others. All these groups are dangerous for society. Governments are responsible of growth of lawlessness, non christian governments are too corrupted so governments of all states must be headed by men of integrity who would be awed by God, knowing His sacred will. Such kind of people are capable of effective governing.

In what way?

You can't comprehend it. You should live in Belarus, Ukraine or Tajikistan,Kyrgizstan, Uzbekistan or some Russian Federation regions - Dagestan, Chechnya whhere christians have problems with governments of their states, they are not allowed to get together and worship God legally. In islamic regions christianity is persecuted by governments. In most arabic states the situations is even much worse. So why wait when muslim come and begin to reign. Are you sure that muslim won't infiltrate the UK (or EU) government? Let's wait, if it goes on like this... I don't think it's unreal.

This seems to sum up your point of view. We are right, everyone else is wrong. What we say matters because God is on our side. No one else has any rights.

We are right not because we have made up an ideology but because God is right and the Church represents God's power on earth. It is your choice whether be or not subjected to Gospel.

[McCulloch]

I suppose that you have evidence to back up this claim

In the US kids aged 11-14 y.o. have special classes on homosexuality. That course is imposed on "from the top". The head of federal education cannot be ignora[n]t of those classes.

Those classes are not homosexual recruitment classes.

And the Bible-believers are the ones who get to decide which religion is a threat to society and which religions are not. Your concept of a Christian Democratic state is flawed. It must either be a Christian theocracy which tramples on the rights of non-believers or a Democracy which allows for toleration of various points of view unless they can be objectively shown to be dangerous.

I prefer Christian theocracy which tramples on the rights of occultists, gays, pimps, drug dealers, gangsters, islamic terrorists, pedophiles and others. All these groups are dangerous for society.

It would come as quite a shock to my wiccan friends that you consider them to be a dangerous for society (or maybe not).

There is one Wiccan commandment: "An ye harm none, do as ye will." Anything that causes harm is evil; Wiccans don't have a right to judge anyone who is not causing harm. Harm applies to both yourself and others. Wiccan moral debates tend to center around what constitutes harm. Many Wiccans also believe in the Rule of Three, or Law of Threefold Return, which holds that whatever we do, good or ill, comes back to us three times over.

In what way are occultists a danger to society? In what way are gays a danger to society? Are all muslims islamic terrorists?

Governments are responsible of growth of lawlessness, non christian governments are too corrupted so governments of all states must be headed by men of integrity who would be awed by God, knowing His sacred will. Such kind of people are capable of effective governing.

Do you have any historical or current evidence that Christian governments are less corrupt than secular ones?

... So why wait when muslim come and begin to reign. Are you sure that muslim won't infiltrate the UK (or EU) government?

So is not the better way to build a wall of separation between government and religion? The muslims will not rule my country, Canada, any more than the Christians.

[Anselm]

McCulloch

Those classes are not homosexual recruitment classes

Teenagers neither select nor analyse the information. I'm well informed about those debauchery of youth classes from my Ukrainian friend in Oregon.

It would come as quite a shock to my wiccan friends that you consider them to be a dangerous for society (or maybe not).

They'd better repent and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Otherwise I don't envy their fate. Any sort of magic or occult practice both black and white is satanic. They don't just admit they worship the devil and evil spirits called "powers of nature". Wiccan religion is abomination for God! God hates sin but loves a sinner but the sinner must repent and believe in Jesus' death and resurrection to be saved!

In what way are occultists a danger to society? In what way are gays a danger to society?

Sometimes it is too hard to teach ABC to grown-ups.

Are all muslims islamic terrorists?

Sure, not all. But those who read Quran understand that it contains a lot of calls to war and religious intolerance. I have only Russian version that's why I can't quote.

Do you have any historical or current evidence that Christian governments are less corrupt than secular ones?

So called religious christian governments cannot be taken into consideration. Religion and living faith in Jesus Christ are absolutely different things.

The muslims will not rule my country, Canada, any more than the Christians.

Canada is one of the most sesular states which lacks christian faith, even in the US the situation seems to be better.

You don't understand many things because you have never lived in Russia. I had to move to St. Petersburg from Belarus having economic and religious reasons for it. Everybody speaks of gay rights but no one talks about christian rights. In my country (Belarus) gospel churches are persecuted by governments. Pastors are sent to jails, churches are closed down you are not allowed freely confess your religion. Only orthodox church enjoys wide latitude and president Lukashenko stays loyal to it. Many gospel christians were beaten by the police and even injured during the peaceful march. Christians rights in such states are ignored or violated and no one cares. So we need gospel christian governments to be respected.

[HughDP]

HughDP
Some movies like Harry Potter advertise magic like something cool and powerful and a lot of kids get spiritually infected.

Anselm, just one isolated point regarding the above: what evidence do you have for this and what do you propose to do about it?

Personally, I think the only people influenced by Harry Potter movies are over-zealous Christians. The rest of us - kids included - can usually distinguish fantasy from reality.

[micatala]

Quote:
In what way are occultists a danger to society? In what way are gays a danger to society?

Sometimes it is too hard to teach ABC to grown-ups.

I suppose that is one possibility. However, others might conclude that you simply have no good answer to the question, or no evidence to back up whatever answer you might have. I don't mean to be unkind, but simply making a statement and then being unwilling to provide any evidence to back it up is not good debating practice.

You don't understand many things because you have never lived in Russia. I had to move to St. Petersburg from Belarus having economic and religious reasons for it. Everybody speaks of gay rights but no one talks about christian rights. In my country (Belarus) gospel churches are persecuted by governments. Pastors are sent to jails, churches are closed down you are not allowed freely confess your religion. Only orthodox church enjoys wide latitude and president Lukashenko stays loyal to it. Many gospel christians were beaten by the police and even injured during the peaceful march. Christians rights in such states are ignored or violated and no one cares. So we need gospel christian governments to be respected.

Certainly the situation you describe is unjust, and I would certainly accept the CHristians are persecuted in many areas of the world. I do think it is incumbent upon all of us who have the privilege of living in a free society to speak out on behalf of those who do not.

However, your solution seems to me to suffer from some problems. First of all, history is full of situations where group A attempts to address persecution of its members by group B by taking over power from group B. Oftentimes, the result is merely a role reversal with group A becoming the oppressors of group B. The Balkans, Rwanda and other areas of Africa, Viet Nam (French colonialists eventually being replaced by North Vietnamese), Cuba (Batista to Castro), Russia (the Tsar to the Bolsheviks), numerous religious persecutions in Europe over the middle ages into the Renaissance, etc. etc.

It also makes the fallacious assumption that only a 'Christian Gospel' government can possibly allow Christians to practice in freedom and safety. There are many existing examples, including nearly all Western Countries, which show this assumption to be false.

You also seem to assume that all Christians are desirous or should be desirous of such a government. I think it is fair to say that many of us who are Christians would have a great deal of concern about the implementation of the type of 'New World Order' you describe. Such a new world order is not, I believe, supported or endorsed by scripture. While we as Christians should feel free to express our viewpoints, and have those viewpoints inform the political decisions we make, the New Testament does not endorse the imposition of Christian beliefs or theocratic laws on unbelievers, even for the protection of believers. We are asked to submit to the authorities that exist, and to live at peace with one another as far as it depends on us. If our enemy strikes us, we are asked to turn the other cheek.

There is often no easy response to persecution and injustice. However, I think it is fair to say that following Christian principles in doing so would require several things:

1. Always speak truthfully.
2. Respect others, even those you disagree with, as in the Golden Rule.
3. Remember that the Bible does not give license to Christians to be violent. He that lives by the sword shall perish by it.
4. Remember that those who follow God are not themselves God, and should not presume to portray their opinions or actions as those of God.

[McCulloch]

It would come as quite a shock to my wiccan friends that you consider them to be a dangerous for society (or maybe not).

They'd better repent and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Otherwise I don't envy their fate. Any sort of magic or occult practice both black and white is satanic. They don't just admit they worship the devil and evil spirits called "powers of nature". Wiccan religion is abomination for God! God hates sin but loves a sinner but the sinner must repent and believe in Jesus' death and resurrection to be saved!

It is clear what your opinion is regarding other religions. It is this kind of attitude which is dangerous to society. You might feel justified violating the rights of those who are satanic and an abomination for God. They, who view your religion with a great deal more tolerance than you display for theirs, are in no way a danger to you.

In what way are occultists a danger to society? In what way are gays a danger to society?

Sometimes it is too hard to teach ABC to grown-ups.

Please answer the question. I really do not see how the Wiccans are more dangerous to a peaceful society than your religion.

Are all muslims islamic terrorists?

Sure, not all. But those who read Quran understand that it contains a lot of calls to war and religious intolerance. I have only Russian version that's why I can't quote.

Any absolutist intolerant supernatural religion has the potential to produce terrorists. How is yours different?

Do you have any historical or current evidence that Christian governments are less corrupt than secular ones?

So called religious christian governments cannot be taken into consideration. Religion and living faith in Jesus Christ are absolutely different things.

Google No True Scotsman

The muslims will not rule my country, Canada, any more than the Christians.

Canada is one of the most se[c]ular states which lacks christian faith, even in the US the situation seems to be better.

What is wrong with a secular state?

You don't understand many things because you have never lived in Russia. I had to m... to be respected.

And yet you advocate destroying the civil rights of those who disagree with you.

[Anselm]

HughDP

Anselm, just one isolated point regarding the above: what evidence do you have for this and what do you propose to do about it?

Though a fairy tale about Harry seems innocent. That is a false conviction. Many children get so fascinated by magic that become fond of it and then get involved in occultism by their senior friends. This book just lays the foundations in young minds. It's clear that kids first play and when they grow up they are likely to start practising as the seeds were sowed in childhood. Nowadays a rise of occultism and non traditional eastern religions spreading fast does a lot of harm on a global scale, especially in the US and Europe. Occultism is one of the abominating sins that the earth and nations get cursed for and degenerate. The Lord says:

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God."(Lev.19:31)

"And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people."(Lev.20:6)

Moreover neither physical nor spiritual laws can be neglected, ignorance costs very much. Ignorence of the Word of God causes mischief in our lives. Jesus calls cognise the truth that sets you free from bondage but people find happiness in slavery. That's high heedlessness. Magic is one of the serious bondages evil spirits keep a person in. So it's wiser to let kids read spiritually good literature. Tha's my christian point of view.

[HughDP]

HughDP

Anselm, just one isolated point regarding the above: what evidence do you have for this and what do you propose to do about it?

Though a fairy tale about Harry seems innocent. That is a false conviction. Many children get so fascinated by magic that become fond of it and then get involved in occultism by their senior friends. This book just lays the foundations in young minds. It's clear that kids first play and when they grow up they are likely to start practising as the seeds were sowed in childhood.

I'm sorry, but I really can't see Harry Potter doing that. In fact, I think the suggestion is ludicrous.

Loads of kids of my era (and others no doubt) have been brought up on stories of wizards, magicians and magic and not one that I know of has turned out to be an occultist. Many are Christians in fact.

By a bizarre coincidence, I did go to the same school as Joanne Rowling (she was 1 year below me); I didn't know her very well but I'm fairly certain she wasn't a witch.

If you have evidence of Harry Potter leading to dangerous occultist beliefs in people, please present it. It's hardly The Exorcist is it?

I really don't think Harry Potter should take the rap for the world's ills.

Occultism is one of the abominating sins that the earth and nations get cursed for and degenerate. The Lord says:

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God."(Lev.19:31)

"And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people."(Lev.20:6)

Moreover neither physical nor spiritual laws can be neglected, ignorance costs very much. Ignorence of the Word of God causes mischief in our lives.

No, it doesn't. Not uniquely, anyway. You see I'm quite prepared to believe that the 'Word of God' has stopped you becoming a dangerous occultist if you tell me it has, but plenty people ignore the 'Word of God' and still manage to stay out of 'mischief'.

Jesus calls cognise the truth that sets you free from bondage but people find happiness in slavery. That's high heedlessness. Magic is one of the serious bondages evil spirits keep a person in. So it's wiser to let kids read spiritually good literature. Tha's my christian point of view.

Right, so you'd ban it? Burn the books etc.? We've been down that route before - it was a big mistake then and it would be a big mistake now.

[McCulloch]

Though a fairy tale about Harry seems innocent. That is a false conviction. Many children get so fascinated by magic that become fond of it and then get involved in occultism by their senior friends. This book just lays the foundations in young minds. It's clear that kids first play and when they grow up they are likely to start practising as the seeds were sowed in childhood. Nowadays a rise of occultism and non traditional eastern religions spreading fast does a lot of harm on a global scale, especially in the US and Europe. Occultism is one of the abominating sins that the earth and nations get cursed for and degenerate.

Please specify what harm is done by occult religions. It is clear that you believe that your God does not aprove of any magic being done except by those who worship Him, but is there any more harm in it than in any other false religion?

Moreover neither physical nor spiritual laws can be neglected, ignorance costs very much. Ignorence of the Word of God causes mischief in our lives. Jesus calls cognise the truth that sets you free from bondage but people find happiness in slavery. That's high heedlessness. Magic is one of the serious bondages evil spirits keep a person in. So it's wiser to let kids read spiritually good literature. Tha[t]'s my christian point of view.

That's fine for those who accept the teachings of Christianity. But you seem to be calling on governments to enforce by law the teachings of one religion on those who do not believe it. Why? I have no problem with any church banning Harry Potter and any other occult literature and practice from its own membership. But why do you think that you have the right to impose your particular biases on others?

[Anselm]

HughDP

Loads of kids of my era (and others no doubt) have been brought up on stories of wizards, magicians and magic and not one that I know of has turned out to be an occultist.

Don't compare Brothers Grimm's tales, for example, and Harry Potter. The last one represents himself as a powerful magician. As if magic is something cool and the way to obtain whatever you wish. Grimm's tales do not show occult practices in details unlike Harry.

I did go to the same school as Joanne Rowling (she was 1 year below me); I didn't know her very well but I'm fairly certain she wasn't a witch.

That does not mean she was not involved in occultism later? Why is she aware of forms of magic spells etc.?

If you have evidence of Harry Potter leading to dangerous occultist beliefs in people, please present it.

Let's wait for the generation to grow up...

but plenty people ignore the 'Word of God' and still manage to stay out of 'mischief'.

1 Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
6 Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7 Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
8 They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10 Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. (HELL)
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
(Ps.73:1-20)
They think they prosper now but after their death they get perdition. Life in vain. You may not believe, when you see Jesus as the Judge not as the Saviour you shall believe but that'll be too late. A person can make choice to repent only in a physical body.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
(Heb.9:27)

McCulloch

It is clear that you believe that your God does not aprove of any magic being done except by those who worship Him,

First of all don't insult believers. Christians don't use magic if somebody's healed they are healed through God's power not through magic. Only occultists perform healing through satanic power. If a person is healed this way the demons then have rights on him or her.

There is only one true God:Father, Jesus Christ the Saviour, Holy Ghost - one in three and three in one, all other false gods shall fall down, all gods of nations are nothing.

That's fine for those who accept the teachings of Christianity. But you seem to be calling on governments to enforce by law the teachings of one religion on those who do not believe it.

If righteousness does not judge wickedness, the wickedness shall judge righteousness!