Conservatives donate more money

[Goat]

So their pastor can get his helicopter repaired

So their pastor can repair his helicopter

Can someone see something inherently wrong with this?

[Ooberman]

YEs, if 80% of a persons charity goes to nothing more than the upkeep of their weekend "country club", with a few soup kitchens thrown in, it's not really charity.

[East of Eden]

Yet, tithes Do go to maintaining the church, is that true or false?

This seems like a bit of a topic jump, don’t you think?

Yes, like nearly every non-profit organization most religious non-profits use part of the money they receive for building maintenance.

Is it???

It is not a topic jump. It is 'Part of the money that I claim I am giving to charity is directly benefiting me, not someone else'. One is more of an extreme, and 'shocking', since it is a more blatant waste of money, the other is NOT really giving to charity, since it is directly benefiting the person giving the donation.
'
Both deal with 'what is charity, and how does that relate to tithing to the church'.

How does the pastor repairing his helicopter benefit those who donated money to the church?

There are probably hundreds of topics that deal with 'what is charity, and how does that relate to tithing to the church.' It would be best to choose one.

What argument are you trying to make in this thread?

It benefits them by making sure their pastor can service more people.

But, like I pointed out, that is just an extreme case. The main point is 'people who tithe to their church count their tithing as charity, yet the money does not go to charitiable causes to a large extent'. Tithing to 'megachurches' is tithing to con men and frauds.

There are 1,300 such megachurches, back up that smear or retract.

The smaller churches, the recepitent of the money is the church, and benefits the person giving the tithe.

In both cases, the tithe is counted by the giver as 'charity', but it's not charity.

Some would say the same for liberals who give to the 'charities' of Planned Parenthood, the ACLU or PBS, etc. Because you don't like the donee doesn't mean it isn't a charity.

Conservatives even donate blood more often.

It is interesting that the politicians most generous with other people's money themselves give so little to charity. The prime example is Obama, who said 'we are our brother's keeper' when trying to sell Obamacare, yet whose own half-brother lives in poverty in Kenya.

[Ooberman]

Wow I didn't realize there were 1,300 con men running churches! I knew there were a lot, but not that many; not that many being that successful.

I figured there were only a few megachurches. I know there are many con men in smaller churches, but I never thought their was such wide acceptance of con men in that way.

I mean, I know the whole thing is a con, but I know some pastors in smaller churches can "keep it real". In fact, many are atheist or agnostic, but can't say because they'd lose their job, friends and maybe family.

BTW, are the Moonies considered a megachurch? I know they do the stadium-style worship that seems to appeal to the victims of these con men.

[East of Eden]

Wow I didn't realize there were 1,300 con men running churches! I knew there were a lot, but not that many; not that many being that successful.

I figured there were only a few megachurches. I know there are many con men in smaller churches, but I never thought their was such wide acceptance of con men in that way.

I mean, I know the whole thing is a con, but I know some pastors in smaller churches can "keep it real". In fact, many are atheist or agnostic, but can't say because they'd lose their job, friends and maybe family.

BTW, are the Moonies considered a megachurch? I know they do the stadium-style worship that seems to appeal to the victims of these con men.

Since you have no clue how many of such churches there are we can disregard your unsupported 'con' smear.

[Ooberman]

Wow I didn't realize there were 1,300 con men running churches! I knew there were a lot, but not that many; not that many being that successful.

I figured there were only a few megachurches. I know there are many con men in smaller churches, but I never thought their was such wide acceptance of con men in that way.

I mean, I know the whole thing is a con, but I know some pastors in smaller churches can "keep it real". In fact, many are atheist or agnostic, but can't say because they'd lose their job, friends and maybe family.

BTW, are the Moonies considered a megachurch? I know they do the stadium-style worship that seems to appeal to the victims of these con men.

Since you have no clue how many of such churches there are we can disregard your unsupported 'con' smear.

Since you have no idea how many con men are out there, we can disregard your objection to my 'con' smear.

It's a little silly to think all that money isn't attracting some of the most money-motivated people on the planet.


I hear they get their own helicopters, and get pensioners to pay for repairs.

[East of Eden]

Wow I didn't realize there were 1,300 con men running churches! I knew there were a lot, but not that many; not that many being that successful.

I figured there were only a few megachurches. I know there are many con men in smaller churches, but I never thought their was such wide acceptance of con men in that way.

I mean, I know the whole thing is a con, but I know some pastors in smaller churches can "keep it real". In fact, many are atheist or agnostic, but can't say because they'd lose their job, friends and maybe family.

BTW, are the Moonies considered a megachurch? I know they do the stadium-style worship that seems to appeal to the victims of these con men.

Since you have no clue how many of such churches there are we can disregard your unsupported 'con' smear.

Since you have no idea how many con men are out there, we can disregard your objection to my 'con' smear.

You are the one who brought up the 'con' charge, the burden is yours to prove it. You've got 1,300 to do so with. While you're at it please provide evidence that 'many' pastors are closet atheists. Is there such a thing as an atheist who is a closet Christian?

It's a little silly to think all that money isn't attracting some of the most money-motivated people on the planet.

This is the fallacy known as 'nothing-buttery'. Because the church, like all human endeavors, involves money, it is said to be about nothing but money.

I hear they get their own helicopters, and get pensioners to pay for repairs.

According to one source:

"While working as a pastor in a megachurch pays more than smaller churches, the position you occupy as a pastor also affects your income. Executive pastors earn an average of $99,000 a year, while worship pastors earn an average of $75,000. A youth pastor at a megachurch earns an average of $54,000."

You going to buy a helicopter on $99,000 a year?

FYI, Rick Warren has given away all his book royalties for years. Why would he do that if it's all about money?

From my experience, most pastors are talented men putting in long hours who could make a lot more in the business world. My Oxford-educated rector makes about $40,000-$50,000 a year, way less than many pencil-pushing government employees do.

[bjs]

It benefits them by making sure their pastor can service more people.

Wouldn’t this mean that it does not benefit them? They would receive a greater benefit if their pastor did not travel great distance to help others and instead stayed closer to home.

But, like I pointed out, that is just an extreme case. The main point is 'people who tithe to their church count their tithing as charity, yet the money does not go to charitiable causes to a large extent'. Tithing to 'megachurches' is tithing to con men and frauds.

There are several hundred “megachruches� in America. Can you support the claim that those who tithe at these churches are tithing to “can men and frauds�?

The smaller churches, the recepitent of the money is the church, and benefits the person giving the tithe.

In both cases, the tithe is counted by the giver as 'charity', but it's not charity.

So what is charity?

Is the Boys and Girls Club of America and charity? What is my kids play basketball there? What if I don’t have any kids there, but I gain the benefit of a more stable society that comes when children have the stable environment the Boys and Girls Club provides?

Is research to cure cancer a charity? Nearly everyone has a friend or family member who suffered from cancer. Don’t I gain a benefit from that “charity�?

What about veterans’ organizations, free health clinics, museums, or scientific research? I gain some advantage from all of these, at the very least indirectly, so are any of them charities?

How can any of these be a charity and a church not be a charity since I gain a benefit from all of them? If none of them are charities, what is an example of a charity?

[Ooberman]

You going to buy a helicopter on $99,000 a year?

Get the pensions to pay for it through the Church, not out of your salary.


Are you not paying attention?

[East of Eden]

You going to buy a helicopter on $99,000 a year?

Get the pensions to pay for it through the Church, not out of your salary.


Are you not paying attention?

Yes, and all I'm seeing is a bunch of wild allegations with no support. I've never seen such a scenario of a helicopter-riding pastor. Since according to you this is typical of mega church pastors I'm sure you can provide a few hundred examples, right?

[Ooberman]

Consider Bishop Eddie Long, who pastors a megachurch in Lithonia, Ga. With a salary approaching $1 million a year and a nine-bathroom mansion situated on 20 acres, Long's choice of vehicles reflects his opulent lifestyle: He drives a $350,000 Bentley.

Far from casting out money changers, Long is likely to join them. In a 2005 profile in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution , he defended his high-flying ways, insisting, "I pastor a multimillion dollar congregation. You've got to put me on a different scale than the little black preacher sitting over there that's supposed to be just getting by because the people are suffering."

Long's lack of humility has probably done him no favors. At the time, U.S. Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), expressed dismay.

"When I hear about leaders of charities being provided a $300,000 Bentley to drive around in, my fear is that it's the taxpayers who subsidize this charity who are really being taken for a ride," he quipped.

In November, Grassley, who serves as ranking minority member on the Senate Finance Committee, ramped things up a bit. He announced that he is seeking detailed financial information from six mega-ministries, Long's among them.

The move sent shock waves through the evangelical community. Grassley is a conservative Republican whose votes on social issues usually please the Religious Right. (His 2006 rating from the Family Research Council was 87 percent.) But the senator has long had an interest in preserving the integrity of the tax laws and has in the past complained about secular non-profits violating the law.

In 2005-06, Grassley held a series of hearings on Capitol Hill that included testimony from large non-profit groups such as the Smithsonian Institution and the Red Cross. Now he's turning his sights to the religious sector.

Grassley's investigation focuses on six ministries, all of which preach the "prosperity gospel" -- the theological assertion that wealth is a reward from God:

Benny Hinn, a TV preacher who runs the World Healing Center Church in Grapevine, Texas. Hinn, who travels the globe conducting faith-healing revivals, lives in a seven-bathroom, eight-bedroom mansion overlooking the Pacific Ocean valued at $10 million. It is claimed as a parsonage.
The Rev. Creflo Dollar's World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga. Dollar drives a Rolls Royce and has large homes in Georgia and New York. He is asked to provide a list of all vehicles provided for himself, his wife, board members and ministry employees.
Paula and Randy White's Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Fla. In a letter to the ministry, Grassley asks the couple to provide a list of expense account items "including, but not limited to, clothing expenses and any cosmetic surgery for years 2004 to present."
Joyce Meyer Ministries in Fenton, Mo. Grassley asks Meyer and her husband David to explain expenditures like a $23,000 commode with a marble top, a $30,000 conference table, an $11,000 French clock and a $19,000 pair of vases for the ministry headquarters.
Kenneth Copeland Ministries in Newark, Texas. Copeland is asked to explain how cash offerings are handled during overseas crusades and to explain the use of a ministry jet for "layovers" in Maui, Fiji and Honolulu.
Long's New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Ga. Among other things, Long is asked to explain a church official's 2005 claim that Long no longer accepts a salary from the church but does take a "love offering."

http://www.alternet.org/story/72539/sen ... e_showdown


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/11/ ... 290127853/


http://www.alternet.org/christian-megac ... nated-cash



And there are plenty more. It doesn't stop with high salaries. It's the perks that aren't recorded. Like Long who doesn't take a salary but is worth millions... hmmm...

Or this:

The trustee also questioned a $70,000 annual salary for Gretchen Schuller Penner, the youngest daughter of Crystal Cathedral's founding family headed by Robert H. Schuller. Penner produces "Hour of Power" broadcasts.

An objection was filed to the $55,000 annual salary for Neyva Penner Klaassen, Gretchen Penner's daughter, who assists with musical guest scheduling for the "Hour of Power" programs.

The church holds a $36 million mortgage, a total debt of nearly $60 million and owes approximately $7.5 million to unsecured creditors, the Register reported.

The mega-church filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy last month after financial woes caused officials to cut about 150 members of its staff, suspend its "Glory of Christmas" and "Glory of Easter" pageants, and sell a number of assets including its San Juan Capistrano retreat center.

The Schuller family members draw a little over $1 million in salaries each year, records showed.



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/11/ ... z2XSfk9p5n