Sexuality & Orientation: A question.

[marketandchurch]

This is a question I am very curious about, vis-a-vis the Christian/Muslim/Jew crowd. But atheists are welcome to chime in as well. Do you think sexuality is fixed?

If you think sexuality is fixed, what is your own personal explanation for the existence of other sexualities? Are there several possibilities vis-a-vis orientation, for the human creature? And by fixed nature, what do you believe is the strength of that rigidity?

Do you think it is somewhat of a spectrum wherein there are most of us, who have a fixed heterosexual orientation, a small group who have a fixed homosexual orientation, and an even tinier portion who are "confused," have multiple sexual identities, or no sexual identity at all?

In other words, please explain your view of the matter in full, and I would love to just get a cross-section of where Christians/Muslim/Jew are on the matter. It is incredibly helpful, because the premise we hold will frame the way we approach the issue of same-sex marriage.

Feel free to expand this to the greater Gay-Marriage debate if you wish, so long as it relates to gender, sexual orientation, and its affects on the society at large.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 393 by bluethread] I'm only relating how eyewitnesses described Jesus' drinking habits which he didn't refute and the wording of Matt 13:55-8

I think you just made up a Bible reference. His enemies said that, the same way they lied about other things.

indicates that it wasn't just a tiny few who made those observations. Were you an eyewitness of his drinking habits?

Funny you don't believe the eyewitnesses when they talk about the miracles.

Just as Jesus didn't mention anything about male homosexuality there is no mention of female homosexuality in the bible let alone any condemnation of female homosexuality.

You are just a fount of misinformation: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lesbian.html

And Jesus never claimed he was a god although he unsuccessfully asked for help from his imagined god (Mark 15:34) and as far as I know he didn't write anything, let alone his memoirs.

Wrong again. http://www.equip.org/articles/did-jesus ... to-be-god/

Ok, Matt 13:55-8 is about Jesus' family not recognizing or acknowledging anything special about him. But you still can't find any evidence that Jesus wasn't a drunk as witnessed, eh (Matt 11:19)? Sigh!!!
What miracles? Is that the one where he hid the wine skins of good wine in the water barrels (John 2)?
Nope, the bible does not mention anything about female homosexuality at all, including Romans 1:26.
So why did Jesus unsuccessfully appeal for help to his imagined god when the chips were down (Mark 15:34) if you suggest that he was a god? Jesus' god didn't even decree that Jesus was his son, and unlike David's god who decreed that David was it's begotten son (Psalm 2:7), despite David being a murdering adulterous polygamous bisexual.

[mitty]

That's funny, you're the biggest evangelist for your cause here.

The difference is that I'm not selling anything, unlike slick tongued hippocrites such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker etc who make good livings selling after-death salvation with money-back guarantees to the gullible. And that business model has been one of the most successful over the last 2000 years, and used by such charmers as the inquisitors and the murdering torturing John Calvin.

[East of Eden]

That's funny, you're the biggest evangelist for your cause here.

The difference is that I'm not selling anything, unlike slick tongued hippocrites such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker etc who make good livings selling after-death salvation with money-back guarantees to the gullible. And that business model has been one of the most successful over the last 2000 years, and used by such charmers as the inquisitors and the murdering torturing John Calvin.

So are you responsible for your fellow atheist Stalin, who at one point was killing 40,000 a week? Your fallacy is called nothing-buttery, or the idea that because the church involves money, as all human enterprises do, it is about nothing but money.

How much does Richard Dawkins make off his ridiculous books?

[East of Eden]

[Replying to post 393 by bluethread] I'm only relating how eyewitnesses described Jesus' drinking habits which he didn't refute and the wording of Matt 13:55-8

I think you just made up a Bible reference. His enemies said that, the same way they lied about other things.

indicates that it wasn't just a tiny few who made those observations. Were you an eyewitness of his drinking habits?

Funny you don't believe the eyewitnesses when they talk about the miracles.

Just as Jesus didn't mention anything about male homosexuality there is no mention of female homosexuality in the bible let alone any condemnation of female homosexuality.

You are just a fount of misinformation: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lesbian.html

And Jesus never claimed he was a god although he unsuccessfully asked for help from his imagined god (Mark 15:34) and as far as I know he didn't write anything, let alone his memoirs.

Wrong again. http://www.equip.org/articles/did-jesus ... to-be-god/

Ok, Matt 13:55-8 is about Jesus' family not recognizing or acknowledging anything special about him.

Early on, they later became leaders of the church. Some people are just slower than others.

But you still can't find any evidence that Jesus wasn't a drunk as witnessed, eh (Matt 11:19)? Sigh!!!

No, His enemies (your source) then and now say all kinds of lies against Him. Their father (Satan) is the father of lies.

What miracles? Is that the one where he hid the wine skins of good wine in the water barrels (John 2)?

That would be another miracle if He could lift a 260 lb. container by Himself.

Nope, the bible does not mention anything about female homosexuality at all, including Romans 1:26.

You've already been proven wrong here.

So why did Jesus unsuccessfully appeal for help to his imagined god when the chips were down (Mark 15:34) if you suggest that he was a god? Jesus' god didn't even decree that Jesus was his son,

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Matt. 3-17

and unlike David's god who decreed that David was it's begotten son (Psalm 2:7), despite David being a murdering adulterous polygamous bisexual.

God came to save sinners like David, you and me.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 405 by bluethread]

I'm sure that those who were wrongly accused during the McCarthy era refuted the accusations.

You seem to be sure of a lot of things. The problem is you also seem to be wrong about a lot of things. There were many who did not dignify McCarthy's methodology with a response and some others made it clear that such attempts at guilt by association and accusation are totally irresponsible.

Where does the bible say that Jesus wasn't a drunkard or that he denied the accusations and thus refuting the statements about his drinking habits in Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34? It's just too easy to stick your head in the sand and pretend that Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34 don't exist.

Getting back to your brow beating inquisition, I am not pretending that those verses exist. It is you who is pretending that the following does not exist.

Mt. 11:16 "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,"

Lk. 7:2 "They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another"

Therefore, he called the accusations childish, as you did with regard inquiries regarding your being a necrophiliac.

And the same reasoning as yours applies to anything in the bible. Can you prove that Jesus transmuted 600 litres of water into quality wine (John 2) and didn't just put some full wineskins into the 6 water barrels? Can you prove that rotting corpses clambered out of their graves and paraded in down-town Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-3)? Can you prove that women were once able to first become pregnant at aged 130 years old (Gen 5:3) and aged 500 (5:32)? Can you prove there was a global flood which covered Mt Everest but which didn't drown an olive tree (Gen 8:2)? Can you prove that Harry Potter and Gandalf don't exist?

Well, if you are questioning the veracity of the Scriptures, why are you evaluating some alleged nuances in a desperate attempt to discredit a couple of the people mentioned in them? If the Scriptures are not true, why would the nuances be?

[mitty]

[Replying to post 393 by bluethread] I'm only relating how eyewitnesses described Jesus' drinking habits which he didn't refute and the wording of Matt 13:55-8

I think you just made up a Bible reference. His enemies said that, the same way they lied about other things.

indicates that it wasn't just a tiny few who made those observations. Were you an eyewitness of his drinking habits?

Funny you don't believe the eyewitnesses when they talk about the miracles.

Just as Jesus didn't mention anything about male homosexuality there is no mention of female homosexuality in the bible let alone any condemnation of female homosexuality.

You are just a fount of misinformation: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lesbian.html

And Jesus never claimed he was a god although he unsuccessfully asked for help from his imagined god (Mark 15:34) and as far as I know he didn't write anything, let alone his memoirs.

Wrong again. http://www.equip.org/articles/did-jesus ... to-be-god/

Ok, Matt 13:55-8 is about Jesus' family not recognizing or acknowledging anything special about him.

Early on, they later became leaders of the church. Some people are just slower than others.

But you still can't find any evidence that Jesus wasn't a drunk as witnessed, eh (Matt 11:19)? Sigh!!!

No, His enemies (your source) then and now say all kinds of lies against Him. Their father (Satan) is the father of lies.

What miracles? Is that the one where he hid the wine skins of good wine in the water barrels (John 2)?

That would be another miracle if He could lift a 260 lb. container by Himself.

Nope, the bible does not mention anything about female homosexuality at all, including Romans 1:26.

You've already been proven wrong here.

So why did Jesus unsuccessfully appeal for help to his imagined god when the chips were down (Mark 15:34) if you suggest that he was a god? Jesus' god didn't even decree that Jesus was his son,

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Matt. 3-17

and unlike David's god who decreed that David was it's begotten son (Psalm 2:7), despite David being a murdering adulterous polygamous bisexual.

God came to save sinners like David, you and me.

Where do the gospels say that his family recognized anything extraordinary about him?
Where does Jesus claim that he wasn't a drunk or refutes the observations of his drinking habits recorded in Matt 11:19 Luke 7:34?
Where does John 2 say that the full water barrels were lifted? John 2:8 simply says "Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast". Pulling out a 5 litre wine skin of aged wine which had been previously hidden in a water barrel hardly requires superman nor any wand-waving magic.
So what, Psalm 2:7 says "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me. Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee". There are plenty of sons of god in the bible, which simply means true believer eg Gen 6:2 John 1:12 Rom 8:14 2Cor 6:18 Luke 3:38 etc. Where does Jesus claim he was a god?

Where does Romans 1:26 mention anything about female homosexuality? Where does Romans 1:26 say that the men's women burned in lust one toward another; women with women working that which is unseemly? Answer: it doesn't, but simply refers to what the women were allowing the men to do to them which Paul disapproved of, such as anal or oral sex, and nothing at all about female homosexuality, which is consistent with the rest of the bible which doesn't mention anything about female homosexuality either even though other aspects of female sexuality are specifically dealt with such as adultery and bestiality.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 405 by bluethread]

And the same reasoning as yours applies to anything in the bible. Can you prove that Jesus transmuted 600 litres of water into quality wine (John 2) and didn't just put some full wineskins into the 6 water barrels? Can you prove that rotting corpses clambered out of their graves and paraded in down-town Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-3)? Can you prove that women were once able to first become pregnant at aged 130 years old (Gen 5:3) and aged 500 (5:32)? Can you prove there was a global flood which covered Mt Everest but which didn't drown an olive tree (Gen 8:2)? Can you prove that Harry Potter and Gandalf don't exist?

Well, if you are questioning the veracity of the Scriptures, why are you evaluating some alleged nuances in a desperate attempt to discredit a couple of the people mentioned in them? If the Scriptures are not true, why would the nuances be?

Do you also believe in the Rainbow Serpent? Do you believe that Homer's stories are true particularly about the Achaean gods? I see no fundamental difference in those stories and the biblical ones. And Matt 11:16 doesn't indicate that Jesus wasn't a drunkard as observed, which he didn't refute. If he was a teetotaler like John, then the comments about his drinking behavior would not have been made at all, let alone recorded by the authors of Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34. And your silly comparison with necrophilia is invalid, unless you are trying to argue that Jesus was also a teetotaler, and if so, you may have to erase many other gospel verses and not just Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34. You are erroneously trying to compare a black & white example of necrophilia with the shade-of-grey one about Jesus' alcohol-drinking habit.

[mitty]

Your fallacy is called nothing-buttery, or the idea that because the church involves money, as all human enterprises do, it is about nothing but money.

That's the history of the church. In contrast, Jesus' message was about charity and tolerance and treating others decently and accepting their differences, including that some are born homosexual (Matt 19:12) or transsexual and other types of intersex such as hermaphrodites. And I'm sure Jesus would agree with Gandhi's comment "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ". True Christians are people such as the Salvoes and other charities and not the hate-filled self-righteous Calvinists. True Christianity is about the gospels and not about Paulianity.

[bluethread]

Do you also believe in the Rainbow Serpent? Do you believe that Homer's stories are true particularly about the Achaean gods? I see no fundamental difference in those stories and the biblical ones.

No, but I also do not make claims regarding the sexual orientation of Odysseus based on inferences regarding his reaction to the sirens.

And Matt 11:16 doesn't indicate that Jesus wasn't a drunkard as observed, which he didn't refute. If he was a teetotaler like John, then the comments about his drinking behavior would not have been made at all, let alone recorded by the authors of Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34. And your silly comparison with necrophilia is invalid, unless you are trying to argue that Jesus was also a teetotaler, and if so, you may have to erase many other gospel verses and not just Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34. You are erroneously trying to compare a black & white example of necrophilia with the shade-of-grey one about Jesus' alcohol-drinking habit.

I am not arguing that Yeshua was a teetotaler. You are asserting that He was a drunkard. As has been pointed out numerous times, there need not be any truth to a matter for people to make accusations. Also, Yeshua did refute the accusation by calling it childish. If there must be some truth, if someone calls something into question and calling something childish is not a refutation, then there must be some truth to behind my inquiry regarding your being a necrophiliac and you have not refuted it. I am not comparing your behavior to Yeshua's, I am comparing the support of your accusation to support for my inquiry. I am glad that you acknowledge that you accusations are shaddy. However, since I am using your line of reasoning and you have not made a clear denial in response to my inquiry, how is that inquiry black & white. That is why it is an inquiry, there is some doubt and you have made it clear that you see doubt as proof.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 417 by bluethread] Since you don't believe in the rainbow serpent or the Achaean gods, why would someone also believe in the similar fantasies in the bible about gods and magic?

There is evidence that he drank heavily (Matt 11:19) and no evidence that he didn't. A heavy regular drinker regards their drinking habits as normal, whereas an occasional drinker will regard them as abnormally excessive. The story of the wedding booze-up supports this (John 2). Obviously the wedding guests, including Jesus & his fellow guests, drank excessively and guzzled down all the grog that was catered for viz "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now" (John 2:10). If he was at all responsible, then he wouldn't have brought out the good wine which he'd previously hidden in the water barrels and suggested the already drunk guests drink water instead. And if you actually believe the absurdity that he transmuted 600 litres of water into wine, then the criticism of his irresponsible attitude about alcohol is even more profound.

And if Jesus was a heavy drinker as indicated (John 2 Matt 11:19), what difference does it make?