Atheist Public Monument

[McCulloch]

On June 29, the group American Atheists will unveil a 1,500-pound granite bench engraved with secular-themed quotations from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and its founder, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, among others, in front of the Bradford County Courthouse in Starke, Fla.

The New-Jersey-based group, which has a membership of about 4,000 atheists, humanists, and other non-believers, won the right to erect the monument in a settlement reached in March over a six-ton granite display of the Ten Commandments on the same property.

[...]
Guidelines for privately funded, public monuments on the Bradford County Courthouse lawn require that the monuments commemorate “people, events, and ideas which played a significant role in the development, origins or foundations of United States of America or Florida law, or Bradford County.� Both the Ten Commandments and the atheist monument meet those requirements, Sexton [Will Sexton, an attorney for Bradford County] said.

The atheist monument — which looks like a backwards, lower-case letter “h� — is engraved with the words of several Founding Fathers, as well as a quotation from the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams in 1797. It reads, “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.�

American Atheists president David Silverman will attend the June 29 unveiling. The monument, he said, is his group’s attempt to assert its equality.

“This is not an attack on religion, but rather religion’s monopoly,� he said. “The words on our monument do not deride or mock, but rather they clarify and correct assertions that Christianity has some kind of special place in America over other religious positions. It does not.�

Is this an attack on religion?
Does anyone have an objection to the appropriateness any of the specific quotes:

• “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.â€� -- John Adams
• “An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty banished, war eliminated.â€� – Madalyn Murray O’Hair
• “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.â€� - Thomas Jefferson
• “It will never be pretended that any person employed in that service [writing the Constitution], had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of Heaven.â€� - John Adams
• “Where a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, ‘tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.â€� - Benjamin Franklin

[Goat]

On June 29, the group American Atheists will unveil a 1,500-pound granite bench engraved with secular-themed quotations from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and its founder, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, among others, in front of the Bradford County Courthouse in Starke, Fla.

The New-Jersey-based group, which has a membership of about 4,000 atheists, humanists, and other non-believers, won the right to erect the monument in a settlement reached in March over a six-ton granite display of the Ten Commandments on the same property.

[...]
Guidelines for privately funded, public monuments on the Bradford County Courthouse lawn require that the monuments commemorate “people, events, and ideas which played a significant role in the development, origins or foundations of United States of America or Florida law, or Bradford County.� Both the Ten Commandments and the atheist monument meet those requirements, Sexton [Will Sexton, an attorney for Bradford County] said.

The atheist monument — which looks like a backwards, lower-case letter “h� — is engraved with the words of several Founding Fathers, as well as a quotation from the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams in 1797. It reads, “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.�

American Atheists president David Silverman will attend the June 29 unveiling. The monument, he said, is his group’s attempt to assert its equality.

“This is not an attack on religion, but rather religion’s monopoly,� he said. “The words on our monument do not deride or mock, but rather they clarify and correct assertions that Christianity has some kind of special place in America over other religious positions. It does not.�

Is this an attack on religion?
Does anyone have an objection to the appropriateness any of the specific quotes:

• “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.â€� -- John Adams
• “An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty banished, war eliminated.â€� – Madalyn Murray O’Hair
• “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.â€� - Thomas Jefferson
• “It will never be pretended that any person employed in that service [writing the Constitution], had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of Heaven.â€� - John Adams
• “Where a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, ‘tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.â€� - Benjamin Franklin

l think it is more of an attack on some Christian behavior, rather than an attack on Christianity. It is copying the building of similar Monuments that are very Christian oriented, whose builders are making that exact same argument. It's an attack on a double standard that some Christians hold.. not on the religion itself.

Personally, I don't think the point is worth making.

[WinePusher]

Is this an attack on religion?

Duh.

Does anyone have an objection to the appropriateness any of the specific quotes:

• “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.â€� -- John Adams
• “An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty banished, war eliminated.â€� – Madalyn Murray O’Hair
• “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.â€� - Thomas Jefferson
• “It will never be pretended that any person employed in that service [writing the Constitution], had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of Heaven.â€� - John Adams
• “Where a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, ‘tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.â€� - Benjamin Franklin

Remove the stupid, moronic quote by Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Having done that, this monument can be built. Similarly, allow religious groups to put up whatever monuments they want in front of courthouses or on public property. If the government permits monuments condemning religion, it should also permit monuments promoting religion.

[Darias]

I generally have a problem with state sanctioned messages regarding religion on public property, simply because our stolen money paid for the land and supports the operation of government that gives its blessings and favors to whatever it wants.

That property does not belong to the state, as though it were a business that owned private land. That property exists because of the taxed. Because all of us pay into it, there shouldn't be state sanctioned 10 commandments, atheist or otherwise on that property. If you wanna go on public property with your signs and your chants, that's different. Just because you have an example of something that promotes and disparages religion does not mean you have nothing -- but instead two unconstitutional displays.

However in the case where the government will continue to allow and promote unconstitutional, state sanctioned messages in the form of permanent fixtures on public property -- then there should be some sort of equality in that, and no one group should have a monopoly. This isn't at all ideal, because more messages will be left out than included, but they still have to pay to provide a home for messages they don't agree with as it pertains to religion -- something the state is, according to its own rules, not supposed to promote or prohibit.

Setting that aside, I don't think the quote from O'Hair fits in with the rest of the founding fathers, and it probably would have been more appropriate to list more founding fathers and thinkers who inspired them than listing her and listing John Adams twice.

[East of Eden]

On June 29, the group American Atheists will unveil a 1,500-pound granite bench engraved with secular-themed quotations from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and its founder, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, among others, in front of the Bradford County Courthouse in Starke, Fla.

The New-Jersey-based group, which has a membership of about 4,000 atheists, humanists, and other non-believers, won the right to erect the monument in a settlement reached in March over a six-ton granite display of the Ten Commandments on the same property.

[...]
Guidelines for privately funded, public monuments on the Bradford County Courthouse lawn require that the monuments commemorate “people, events, and ideas which played a significant role in the development, origins or foundations of United States of America or Florida law, or Bradford County.� Both the Ten Commandments and the atheist monument meet those requirements, Sexton [Will Sexton, an attorney for Bradford County] said.

The atheist monument — which looks like a backwards, lower-case letter “h� — is engraved with the words of several Founding Fathers, as well as a quotation from the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams in 1797. It reads, “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.�

American Atheists president David Silverman will attend the June 29 unveiling. The monument, he said, is his group’s attempt to assert its equality.

“This is not an attack on religion, but rather religion’s monopoly,� he said. “The words on our monument do not deride or mock, but rather they clarify and correct assertions that Christianity has some kind of special place in America over other religious positions. It does not.�

Is this an attack on religion?
Does anyone have an objection to the appropriateness any of the specific quotes:

• “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.â€� -- John Adams
• “An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty banished, war eliminated.â€� – Madalyn Murray O’Hair
• “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.â€� - Thomas Jefferson
• “It will never be pretended that any person employed in that service [writing the Constitution], had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of Heaven.â€� - John Adams
• “Where a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, ‘tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.â€� - Benjamin Franklin

Fine, as long as we can go forward with many more quotes from the Founders that sounded like Jerry Falwell. Franklin and Jefferson were flakes on religion among the Founders, and were not representative.

We better have a big monument, here are three pages of such quotes:

http://christianity.about.com/od/indepe ... athers.htm

I like this one from one of the signers of the Declaration:

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."

If you're going to include a quote from Madylyn M. O'Hair, can we include one from Billy Graham, William Lane Craig, C.S. Lewis or Josh McDowell?

[Wyvern]

I like this one from one of the signers of the Declaration:

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."

If you're going to include a quote from Madylyn M. O'Hair, can we include one from Billy Graham, William Lane Craig, C.S. Lewis or Josh McDowell?

Care to explain how someone that does not even believe any god exists can be an enemy of such an entity? Just because I do not believe Zeus exists does that make me an enemy of Zeus?

[keithprosser3]

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country.

You like that one? I think it's rather unpleasant and wrong-headed. To save people time, it is from
John Witherspoon, who I'd never heard of before.

[East of Eden]

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country.

You like that one? I think it's rather unpleasant and wrong-headed. To save people time, it is from
John Witherspoon, who I'd never heard of before.

It was a little tongue in cheek, Keith. The point is the other side wouldn't appreciate inflammatory statements against their beliefs either.

[East of Eden]

I like this one from one of the signers of the Declaration:

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."

If you're going to include a quote from Madylyn M. O'Hair, can we include one from Billy Graham, William Lane Craig, C.S. Lewis or Josh McDowell?

Care to explain how someone that does not even believe any god exists can be an enemy of such an entity? Just because I do not believe Zeus exists does that make me an enemy of Zeus?

You tell me, I see many here who don't believe in God but spent a good part of their waking hours preaching against Him.

[keithprosser3]

It was a little tongue in cheek, Keith.

My apologies. I wish someone would invent a smiley for irony - just think of all the misplaced vitriol it would save.

Can't the [irony]tag be enabled[/irony]?