This is a question I am very curious about, vis-a-vis the Christian/Muslim/Jew crowd. But atheists are welcome to chime in as well. Do you think sexuality is fixed?
If you think sexuality is fixed, what is your own personal explanation for the existence of other sexualities? Are there several possibilities vis-a-vis orientation, for the human creature? And by fixed nature, what do you believe is the strength of that rigidity?
Do you think it is somewhat of a spectrum wherein there are most of us, who have a fixed heterosexual orientation, a small group who have a fixed homosexual orientation, and an even tinier portion who are "confused," have multiple sexual identities, or no sexual identity at all?
In other words, please explain your view of the matter in full, and I would love to just get a cross-section of where Christians/Muslim/Jew are on the matter. It is incredibly helpful, because the premise we hold will frame the way we approach the issue of same-sex marriage.
Feel free to expand this to the greater Gay-Marriage debate if you wish, so long as it relates to gender, sexual orientation, and its affects on the society at large.
Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Moderator: Moderators
-
marketandchurch
- Scholar
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:51 am
- Location: The People's Republic Of Portland
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #51It is not based in reality because of all the examples in reality that say otherwise. Reality does not bend to your wishful thinking. My feeling is that you have had very little contact with actual gay people.charles_hamm wrote:
As I expected people when confronted with an obvious double standard are trying to justify it. You have made a statement based on the assumption that the person must be lying because of 'societal pressure'. Please list these pressures.
Please explain why position is not based in reality.
Although things are getting better, there is still a tremendous amount of social pressure to be heterosexual. Homosexuality is hidden from family and peers. If a child does come out or if his orientation is just suspected, he is often the victim of both psychological and even physical abuse. If the child is being raised in a fundamentalist religious environment, it is even more difficult. The child is told that his feelings are sinful--he is not acceptable to God and could face eternal damnation. Suicide is not uncommon.
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #52It is cruel to expect people to live without a fulfilling, loving relationship, especially when the basis of such an expectation is a book written thousands of years ago by a primitive tribe with little understanding of human sexuality.noshameinChrist wrote: [Replying to post 1 by marketandchurch]
I personally don't understand the question. As a Christian, I ultimately believe the exercise of sinful conduct is a choice. The broader question seems to me to be whether feelings (or "orientation") justifies conduct. Just as I believe Adulterous acts is a sin, so too is homosexual acts. I personally don't think the issue is very daunting at all. Even if "orientation" is fixed or not, acting on the feeling is nevertheless sinful and wrong.
Note: this is not stated with hatred towards any person. It is said in deference to scripture. I'm not a homophobe. I believe heterosexual adultery, for example, is just as dispicable as homosexual acts.
I choose God.
God chooses people.
-
charles_hamm
- Guru
- Posts: 1043
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:30 pm
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #53You are right. I don't surround myself with gay people.kayky wrote:It is not based in reality because of all the examples in reality that say otherwise. Reality does not bend to your wishful thinking. My feeling is that you have had very little contact with actual gay people.charles_hamm wrote:
As I expected people when confronted with an obvious double standard are trying to justify it. You have made a statement based on the assumption that the person must be lying because of 'societal pressure'. Please list these pressures.
Please explain why position is not based in reality.
Although things are getting better, there is still a tremendous amount of social pressure to be heterosexual. Homosexuality is hidden from family and peers. If a child does come out or if his orientation is just suspected, he is often the victim of both psychological and even physical abuse. If the child is being raised in a fundamentalist religious environment, it is even more difficult. The child is told that his feelings are sinful--he is not acceptable to God and could face eternal damnation. Suicide is not uncommon.
Please explain 'getting better'. Why should a family be forced to accept that their child is homosexual? I don't agree with abuse, but I also don't believe the parents should be forced to condone the lifestyle. If a parent tells the child that they are sinning then that should not be a problem as long as that is the way the parent really feels. What you are suggesting here is that the family is somehow in the wrong for not coddling to their child who says he/she is gay. The fact that the child is gay does not change the parents right to view homosexuality as a sin and to say that the lifestyle is wrong.
To be clear, however, I do not approve of physical or psychological abuse. Psychological abuse does not consist of telling the child your beliefs on the issue if the subject comes up though.
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.- C.S. Lewis
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #54Could you "willingly change" your sexual orientation? Could you choose to be gay? If one person can do it, then anyone should be able to.charles_hamm wrote:
That is not the situation I am talking about. I am talking a person willingly changing, not being forced to try to change.
-
charles_hamm
- Guru
- Posts: 1043
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:30 pm
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #55http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/us/ex ... d=all&_r=0kayky wrote:Could you "willingly change" your sexual orientation? Could you choose to be gay? If one person can do it, then anyone should be able to.charles_hamm wrote:
That is not the situation I am talking about. I am talking a person willingly changing, not being forced to try to change.
Here is your one person (and a few more for good measure).
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.- C.S. Lewis
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #56This explains your lack of understanding and empathy. It's much easier to judge people you don't know.charles_hamm wrote:
You are right. I don't surround myself with gay people.
As society has become more accepting, it is gradually becoming easier for gay people to "come out." There are more role models on television, and over half of allPlease explain 'getting better'.
Americans support gay marriage. Anti-bullying lessons in schools now include gay children. These are all positive steps forward.
No one should be forced to do anything. This issue often ends up with discarded children. However, many families are now embracing their gay children and accepting them just the way they are. There's nothing like a beloved child "coming out" to change a person's mind about homosexuality.Why should a family be forced to accept that their child is homosexual? I don't agree with abuse, but I also don't believe the parents should be forced to condone the lifestyle. If a parent tells the child that they are sinning then that should not be a problem as long as that is the way the parent really feels.
Personally, I see it as child abuse. But then I see raising a child in fundamentalism as child abuse.What you are suggesting here is that the family is somehow in the wrong for not coddling to their child who says he/she is gay. The fact that the child is gay does not change the parents right to view homosexuality as a sin and to say that the lifestyle is wrong.
I guess it depends on whether or not you want to have a relationship with that child in the future.To be clear, however, I do not approve of physical or psychological abuse. Psychological abuse does not consist of telling the child your beliefs on the issue if the subject comes up though.
-
JohnPaul
- Banned
- Posts: 2259
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:00 am
- Location: northern California coast, USA
Post #57
kayky wrote:
What if the child "comes out" as a terrorist bomber? Are there degrees of acceptance?No one should be forced to do anything. This issue often ends up with discarded children. However, many families are now embracing their gay children and accepting them just the way they are. There's nothing like a beloved child "coming out" to change a person's mind about homosexuality.
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #58[Replying to post 55 by charles_hamm]
Here is the above article so people can read it and decide for themselves. The bolding is mine.
‘Ex-Gay’ Men Fight Back Against View That Homosexuality Can’t Be Changed
By ERIK ECKHOLM
Published: October 31, 2012
LOS ANGELES — For most of his life, Blake Smith said, “every inch of my body craved male sexual contact.�
Enlarge This Image
Monica Almeida/The New York Times
“In my 50s, for the first time, I can look at a woman and say, ‘She’s really hot.’ �
- BLAKE SMITH, a veteran of counseling and men’s retreats
Monica Almeida/The New York Times
“If I’d known about these therapies as a teen I could have avoided a lot of depression, self-hatred and suicidal thoughts.�
- AARON BITZER, plaintiff in a lawsuit challenging a California law
Mr. Smith, 58, who says he believes homosexual behavior is wrong on religious grounds, tried to tough it out. He spent 17 years in a doomed marriage while battling his urges all day, he said, and dreaming about them all night.
But in recent years, as he probed his childhood in counseling and at men’s weekend retreats with names like People Can Change and Journey Into Manhood, “my homosexual feelings have nearly vanished,� Mr. Smith said in an interview at the house in Bakersfield, Calif., he shares with his second wife, who married him eight years ago knowing his history. “In my 50s, for the first time, I can look at a woman and say ‘she’s really hot.’ �
Mr. Smith is one of thousands of men across the country, often known as “ex-gay,� who believe they have changed their most basic sexual desires through some combination of therapy and prayer — something most scientists say has never been proved possible and is likely an illusion.
Ex-gay men are often closeted, fearing ridicule from gay advocates who accuse them of self-deception and, at the same time, fearing rejection by their church communities as tainted oddities. Here in California, their sense of siege grew more intense in September when Gov. Jerry Brown signed a law banning use of widely discredited sexual “conversion therapies� for minors — an assault on their own validity, some ex-gay men feel.
Signing the measure, Governor Brown repeated the view of the psychiatric establishment and medical groups, saying, “This bill bans nonscientific ‘therapies’ that have driven young people to depression and suicide,� adding that the practices “will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery.�
But many ex-gays have continued to seek help from such therapists and men’s retreats, saying their own experience is proof enough that the treatment can work.
Aaron Bitzer, 35, was so angered by the California ban, which will take effect on Jan. 1, that he went public and became a plaintiff in a lawsuit challenging the law as unconstitutional.
To those who call the therapy dangerous, Mr. Bitzer reverses the argument: “If I’d known about these therapies as a teen I could have avoided a lot of depression, self-hatred and suicidal thoughts,� he said at his apartment in Los Angeles. He was tormented as a Christian teenager by his homosexual attractions, but now, after men’s retreats and an online course of reparative therapy, he says he feels glimmers of attraction for women and is thinking about dating.
“I found that I couldn’t just say ‘I’m gay’ and live that way,� said Mr. Bitzer, who plans to seek a doctorate in psychology and become a therapist himself.
Many ex-gays guard their secret but quietly meet in support groups around the country, sharing ideas on how to avoid temptations or, perhaps, broach their past with a female date. Some are trying to save heterosexual marriages. Some, like Mr. Bitzer, hope one day to marry a woman. Some choose celibacy as an improvement over what they regard as a sinful gay life.
Whether they have gone through formal reparative therapy, most ex-gays agree with its tenets, even as they are rejected by mainstream scientists. The theories, which have also been adopted by conservative religious opponents of gay marriage, hold that male homosexuality emerges from family dynamics — often a distant father and an overbearing mother — or from early sexual abuse. Confronting these psychic wounds, they assert, can bring change in sexual desire, if not necessarily a total “cure.�
(While some women also struggle with sexual identity, the ex-gay movement is virtually all male.)
Major mental health associations say teenagers who are pushed into therapy by conservative parents may feel guilt and despair when their inner impulses do not change.
Reparative therapy suffered two other major setbacks this year. In April, a prominent psychiatrist, Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, publicly repudiated as invalid his own 2001 study suggesting that some people could change their sexual orientation; the study had been widely cited by defenders of the therapy.
Then this summer, the ex-gay world was convulsed when Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus International, the largest Christian ministry for people fighting same-sex attraction, said he did not believe anyone could be rid of homosexual desires.
Joseph Nicolosi, a psychologist and clinical director of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino, Calif., which he describes as the largest reparative therapy clinic in the world, disagreed.
“I don’t believe that anybody is really gay,� he said. “I believe that all people are heterosexual but that some have a homosexual problem, and some of these people attempt to resolve their conflict by adopting a sociopolitical label called ‘gay.’ �
By unearthing family trauma, Dr. Nicolosi said, many patients find their homosexual urges dissipating.
Jeremy S., 34, a corporate contract officer in Dallas, says he is among them. Jeremy, who did not want his last name printed to avoid embarrassing his parents, said that from his teens until three years ago he lived as a gay man, at times having sex almost daily. “It wasn’t working for me,� he said.
After two years of therapy via Skype with Dr. Nicolosi’s clinic, he said, “my attraction to men was drastically diminishing.� He said he has not had sex with a man for more than two years and does not think about it more than once a month, adding that his Catholic faith has also deepened.
Critics like Wayne Besen, the executive director of Truth Wins Out, which fights antigay bias, liken such therapy to faith healing, with apparent effects that later fade away.
They also point out that the failures of such therapy are seldom reported.
S. Marc Breedlove, a neuroscientist and psychologist at Michigan State University, said there was overwhelming evidence that sexual orientation is affected by both biology and environment. Clearly, he said, reparative therapy helps some people alter sexual behavior. But that is far different, he noted, from transforming instinctive sexual desires, something never proved in scientific studies.
Cameron Michael Swaim, 20, said he is in the early stages of his struggle to overcome homosexual desires. Mr. Swaim is unemployed and lives with his parents in Orange County, Calif., where his father is a pastor of the Evangelical Friends Church of the Southwest.
He tried the gay life, but “it just doesn’t settle with me,� he said, and ultimately decided “there’s got to be a way to heal this affliction.�
Through weekend retreats and participation in a Southern California support group Mr. Swaim has started to explore his family relations, he said, something that has been painful but seems to be helping.
“I’m building my confidence around men,� he said, “ and that has built my confidence around women.�
Five years from now, Mr. Swaim hopes, he will be engaged or married. In the meantime, he is trying to scrape together enough money to start seeing a reparative therapist.
I find it very telling that in most cases, these men are religiously motivated. While there are exceptions that prove the rule, I think most of these men are being abused.
Here is the above article so people can read it and decide for themselves. The bolding is mine.
‘Ex-Gay’ Men Fight Back Against View That Homosexuality Can’t Be Changed
By ERIK ECKHOLM
Published: October 31, 2012
LOS ANGELES — For most of his life, Blake Smith said, “every inch of my body craved male sexual contact.�
Enlarge This Image
Monica Almeida/The New York Times
“In my 50s, for the first time, I can look at a woman and say, ‘She’s really hot.’ �
- BLAKE SMITH, a veteran of counseling and men’s retreats
Monica Almeida/The New York Times
“If I’d known about these therapies as a teen I could have avoided a lot of depression, self-hatred and suicidal thoughts.�
- AARON BITZER, plaintiff in a lawsuit challenging a California law
Mr. Smith, 58, who says he believes homosexual behavior is wrong on religious grounds, tried to tough it out. He spent 17 years in a doomed marriage while battling his urges all day, he said, and dreaming about them all night.
But in recent years, as he probed his childhood in counseling and at men’s weekend retreats with names like People Can Change and Journey Into Manhood, “my homosexual feelings have nearly vanished,� Mr. Smith said in an interview at the house in Bakersfield, Calif., he shares with his second wife, who married him eight years ago knowing his history. “In my 50s, for the first time, I can look at a woman and say ‘she’s really hot.’ �
Mr. Smith is one of thousands of men across the country, often known as “ex-gay,� who believe they have changed their most basic sexual desires through some combination of therapy and prayer — something most scientists say has never been proved possible and is likely an illusion.
Ex-gay men are often closeted, fearing ridicule from gay advocates who accuse them of self-deception and, at the same time, fearing rejection by their church communities as tainted oddities. Here in California, their sense of siege grew more intense in September when Gov. Jerry Brown signed a law banning use of widely discredited sexual “conversion therapies� for minors — an assault on their own validity, some ex-gay men feel.
Signing the measure, Governor Brown repeated the view of the psychiatric establishment and medical groups, saying, “This bill bans nonscientific ‘therapies’ that have driven young people to depression and suicide,� adding that the practices “will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery.�
But many ex-gays have continued to seek help from such therapists and men’s retreats, saying their own experience is proof enough that the treatment can work.
Aaron Bitzer, 35, was so angered by the California ban, which will take effect on Jan. 1, that he went public and became a plaintiff in a lawsuit challenging the law as unconstitutional.
To those who call the therapy dangerous, Mr. Bitzer reverses the argument: “If I’d known about these therapies as a teen I could have avoided a lot of depression, self-hatred and suicidal thoughts,� he said at his apartment in Los Angeles. He was tormented as a Christian teenager by his homosexual attractions, but now, after men’s retreats and an online course of reparative therapy, he says he feels glimmers of attraction for women and is thinking about dating.
“I found that I couldn’t just say ‘I’m gay’ and live that way,� said Mr. Bitzer, who plans to seek a doctorate in psychology and become a therapist himself.
Many ex-gays guard their secret but quietly meet in support groups around the country, sharing ideas on how to avoid temptations or, perhaps, broach their past with a female date. Some are trying to save heterosexual marriages. Some, like Mr. Bitzer, hope one day to marry a woman. Some choose celibacy as an improvement over what they regard as a sinful gay life.
Whether they have gone through formal reparative therapy, most ex-gays agree with its tenets, even as they are rejected by mainstream scientists. The theories, which have also been adopted by conservative religious opponents of gay marriage, hold that male homosexuality emerges from family dynamics — often a distant father and an overbearing mother — or from early sexual abuse. Confronting these psychic wounds, they assert, can bring change in sexual desire, if not necessarily a total “cure.�
(While some women also struggle with sexual identity, the ex-gay movement is virtually all male.)
Major mental health associations say teenagers who are pushed into therapy by conservative parents may feel guilt and despair when their inner impulses do not change.
Reparative therapy suffered two other major setbacks this year. In April, a prominent psychiatrist, Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, publicly repudiated as invalid his own 2001 study suggesting that some people could change their sexual orientation; the study had been widely cited by defenders of the therapy.
Then this summer, the ex-gay world was convulsed when Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus International, the largest Christian ministry for people fighting same-sex attraction, said he did not believe anyone could be rid of homosexual desires.
Joseph Nicolosi, a psychologist and clinical director of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino, Calif., which he describes as the largest reparative therapy clinic in the world, disagreed.
“I don’t believe that anybody is really gay,� he said. “I believe that all people are heterosexual but that some have a homosexual problem, and some of these people attempt to resolve their conflict by adopting a sociopolitical label called ‘gay.’ �
By unearthing family trauma, Dr. Nicolosi said, many patients find their homosexual urges dissipating.
Jeremy S., 34, a corporate contract officer in Dallas, says he is among them. Jeremy, who did not want his last name printed to avoid embarrassing his parents, said that from his teens until three years ago he lived as a gay man, at times having sex almost daily. “It wasn’t working for me,� he said.
After two years of therapy via Skype with Dr. Nicolosi’s clinic, he said, “my attraction to men was drastically diminishing.� He said he has not had sex with a man for more than two years and does not think about it more than once a month, adding that his Catholic faith has also deepened.
Critics like Wayne Besen, the executive director of Truth Wins Out, which fights antigay bias, liken such therapy to faith healing, with apparent effects that later fade away.
They also point out that the failures of such therapy are seldom reported.
S. Marc Breedlove, a neuroscientist and psychologist at Michigan State University, said there was overwhelming evidence that sexual orientation is affected by both biology and environment. Clearly, he said, reparative therapy helps some people alter sexual behavior. But that is far different, he noted, from transforming instinctive sexual desires, something never proved in scientific studies.
Cameron Michael Swaim, 20, said he is in the early stages of his struggle to overcome homosexual desires. Mr. Swaim is unemployed and lives with his parents in Orange County, Calif., where his father is a pastor of the Evangelical Friends Church of the Southwest.
He tried the gay life, but “it just doesn’t settle with me,� he said, and ultimately decided “there’s got to be a way to heal this affliction.�
Through weekend retreats and participation in a Southern California support group Mr. Swaim has started to explore his family relations, he said, something that has been painful but seems to be helping.
“I’m building my confidence around men,� he said, “ and that has built my confidence around women.�
Five years from now, Mr. Swaim hopes, he will be engaged or married. In the meantime, he is trying to scrape together enough money to start seeing a reparative therapist.
I find it very telling that in most cases, these men are religiously motivated. While there are exceptions that prove the rule, I think most of these men are being abused.
Re: Sexuality & Orientation: A question.
Post #59I don't recall asking for examples, but I did ask you a specific question in this post that you thus far have failed to answer.charles_hamm wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/us/ex ... d=all&_r=0kayky wrote:Could you "willingly change" your sexual orientation? Could you choose to be gay? If one person can do it, then anyone should be able to.charles_hamm wrote:
That is not the situation I am talking about. I am talking a person willingly changing, not being forced to try to change.
Here is your one person (and a few more for good measure).
Last edited by kayky on Tue May 21, 2013 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #60
JohnPaul wrote: kayky wrote:What if the child "comes out" as a terrorist bomber? Are there degrees of acceptance?No one should be forced to do anything. This issue often ends up with discarded children. However, many families are now embracing their gay children and accepting them just the way they are. There's nothing like a beloved child "coming out" to change a person's mind about homosexuality.
How does this relate to sexual orientation?
