Revolution
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Nickman
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Revolution
Post #1Many Christians have claimed that the US constitution is a work of god. Would a Revolution against it for a better government be a sin against god's established law? Lets say that our government in the USA becomes a Christian based government. Would it be heretical to oppose it? Think back to King Geaorge before you answer.
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Nickman
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Re: Revolution
Post #11This tells us that faith is void of virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience,godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity. It tells you that you need to add these characteristics which are not characteristic of faith. The attributes can be acquired without faith can they not?YahDough wrote:Peter shows a progression toward Godliness.Nickman wrote:Your statement would be valid if you can show a correlation/causation.YahDough wrote:Who cares what an atheist says?Nickman wrote:I would say that the godlier you are the less you know about reality and more intolerant you become.YahDough wrote:Preserving freedom at the expense of truth is degenerative. Godly men know the truth.Nickman wrote:Why do you need godly men to tweak it?YahDough wrote:Funny that an atheist would ask that question.Nickman wrote: Many Christians have claimed that the US constitution is a work of god. Would a Revolution against it for a better government be a sin against god's established law? Lets say that our government in the USA becomes a Christian based government. Would it be heretical to oppose it? Think back to King Geaorge before you answer.Are you sowing discord?
If our Constitution is a work of God it shouldn't be changed. If it is not, we have provisions to tweak it so that it is. But we need Godly men who will tweak it in the right direction.
Ps:33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
It is a secular document made to be completely different than a theocracy. It is the secular principles that secures your right to believe what you want. If it was from your god it would condemn all other beliefs in all other deities.
Jn:8:32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
I would say the Godlier you are, the more you exhibit the characteristics of the LORD..Mk:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
2 Peter 1: 5-7
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Re: Revolution
Post #12No Nickman. Read the first verse ...."add to your faith". You have to start with faith before you can progress toward Godliness. This scripture is for believers who have a measure of faith to begin with.Nickman wrote:This tells us that faith is void of virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience,godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity. It tells you that you need to add these characteristics which are not characteristic of faith. The attributes can be acquired without faith can they not?YahDough wrote:Peter shows a progression toward Godliness.Nickman wrote:Your statement would be valid if you can show a correlation/causation.YahDough wrote:Who cares what an atheist says?Nickman wrote:I would say that the godlier you are the less you know about reality and more intolerant you become.YahDough wrote:Preserving freedom at the expense of truth is degenerative. Godly men know the truth.Nickman wrote:Why do you need godly men to tweak it?YahDough wrote:Funny that an atheist would ask that question.Nickman wrote: Many Christians have claimed that the US constitution is a work of god. Would a Revolution against it for a better government be a sin against god's established law? Lets say that our government in the USA becomes a Christian based government. Would it be heretical to oppose it? Think back to King Geaorge before you answer.
If our Constitution is a work of God it shouldn't be changed. If it is not, we have provisions to tweak it so that it is. But we need Godly men who will tweak it in the right direction.
Ps:33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
It is a secular document made to be completely different than a theocracy. It is the secular principles that secures your right to believe what you want. If it was from your god it would condemn all other beliefs in all other deities.
Jn:8:32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
I would say the Godlier you are, the more you exhibit the characteristics of the LORD..Mk:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
2 Peter 1: 5-7
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
From faith we move on to higher ground: To virtue to knowledge to temperance to patience to Godliness and beyond that to brotherly kindness and brotherly love.
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McCulloch
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Re: Revolution
Post #13Reply to Nickman
Many of the basic concepts of the American Revolution go directly against the ideals and principles taught by the writers of the New Testament. For example, Taxation without Representation [for men1] was one of the chief grievances of the revolutionaries, yet Jesus taught his followers to pay their taxes even though they had no government representation. The Revolutionaries set up a government by the people and for the people, using the Enlightenment principle of the consent of the governed, yet Paul teaches that the established kings are to be obeyed, having been established by God. The writers of the US Declaration of Independence declared that it is both the right and the duty of the oppressed to throw off a despotic government and to establish, by force of armed violence if necessary, a better rule. Yet Jesus taught his followers to submit to those who would oppress them, to go the extra mile with those who would unjustly force efforts from them.
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1 Susan B. Anthony's sister Mary would write "Taxation without Representation" on every cheque she wrote to pay the taxes on her property. She was never allowed to vote in her own lifetime.
Many of the basic concepts of the American Revolution go directly against the ideals and principles taught by the writers of the New Testament. For example, Taxation without Representation [for men1] was one of the chief grievances of the revolutionaries, yet Jesus taught his followers to pay their taxes even though they had no government representation. The Revolutionaries set up a government by the people and for the people, using the Enlightenment principle of the consent of the governed, yet Paul teaches that the established kings are to be obeyed, having been established by God. The writers of the US Declaration of Independence declared that it is both the right and the duty of the oppressed to throw off a despotic government and to establish, by force of armed violence if necessary, a better rule. Yet Jesus taught his followers to submit to those who would oppress them, to go the extra mile with those who would unjustly force efforts from them.
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1 Susan B. Anthony's sister Mary would write "Taxation without Representation" on every cheque she wrote to pay the taxes on her property. She was never allowed to vote in her own lifetime.
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Nickman
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Re: Revolution
Post #14I agree with you here. The teachings in the NT tell us to be submissive while the Declaration tells us that if our government gets a little crazy that we have every right to take up arms against it and overthrow it in the name of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This raises a great question to Christians then. "How is our nation built on Christian principles when the principles this nation is built on is in direct contradiction?"McCulloch wrote: Reply to Nickman
Many of the basic concepts of the American Revolution go directly against the ideals and principles taught by the writers of the New Testament. For example, Taxation without Representation [for men1] was one of the chief grievances of the revolutionaries, yet Jesus taught his followers to pay their taxes even though they had no government representation. The Revolutionaries set up a government by the people and for the people, using the Enlightenment principle of the consent of the governed, yet Paul teaches that the established kings are to be obeyed, having been established by God. The writers of the US Declaration of Independence declared that it is both the right and the duty of the oppressed to throw off a despotic government and to establish, by force of armed violence if necessary, a better rule. Yet Jesus taught his followers to submit to those who would oppress them, to go the extra mile with those who would unjustly force efforts from them.
_________________
1 Susan B. Anthony's sister Mary would write "Taxation without Representation" on every cheque she wrote to pay the taxes on her property. She was never allowed to vote in her own lifetime.
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keithprosser3
Post #15
Is it relevant that Christianity was a 'apocalyptic' cult - the world was not meant to continue for much longer before it was replaced by the Kingdom of God, so overtly political acts on Earth were not really significant?
Christianity lays great stress on passivity and acceptance of the 'slings and arrows' of mundane world. It is - put crudely - a 'losers' religion, a religion that glorifies political impotence and poverty and elevates them to 'virtues'. This is marked contrast to the original Judaic religion which was stridently nationalistic and triumphalist, and to an extent with Islam, which was developed as a unifying force for an expanding Arabian empire.
Christianity shows signs of the condition of its origins amongst a people who were oppressed and had lost hope of improvements in their condition, having suffered a series of military defeats and occupations. The nationalism and Jewish chauvinism of Judaism as preached by the Pharisees and Saduccees (who were hopelessly corrupt) had no resonance with ordinary poor Jews. Christianity appealed to poor, disenfranchised Jews, just as it appeals to many poor in 3rd world countries today.
Christianity is a religion that concerned itself with a 'next world', not this world.
Christianity lays great stress on passivity and acceptance of the 'slings and arrows' of mundane world. It is - put crudely - a 'losers' religion, a religion that glorifies political impotence and poverty and elevates them to 'virtues'. This is marked contrast to the original Judaic religion which was stridently nationalistic and triumphalist, and to an extent with Islam, which was developed as a unifying force for an expanding Arabian empire.
Christianity shows signs of the condition of its origins amongst a people who were oppressed and had lost hope of improvements in their condition, having suffered a series of military defeats and occupations. The nationalism and Jewish chauvinism of Judaism as preached by the Pharisees and Saduccees (who were hopelessly corrupt) had no resonance with ordinary poor Jews. Christianity appealed to poor, disenfranchised Jews, just as it appeals to many poor in 3rd world countries today.
Christianity is a religion that concerned itself with a 'next world', not this world.
Re: Revolution
Post #16[Replying to post 13 by McCulloch]
Read Romans 13 in the Bible if you want a better perspective of what a Christian can and can't do. I've included it below.
The US will go down the tube like Rome without the blessings of the LORD.
Ps:33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Romans 13
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5: Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6: For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7: Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11: And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12: The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13: Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Read Romans 13 in the Bible if you want a better perspective of what a Christian can and can't do. I've included it below.
The US will go down the tube like Rome without the blessings of the LORD.
Ps:33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Romans 13
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5: Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6: For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7: Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11: And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12: The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13: Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Post #17
No. Christianity is a process that prepares us for the next world while we live in this world.keithprosser3 wrote: Christianity is a religion that concerned itself with a 'next world', not this world.
Jn:10:10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
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keithprosser3
Post #18
We may differ on that point.
I am interested in explaining a fact: i.e. Christians believe in a next world (among other things).
It is my view that Christians believe what they believe because of the historical context in which Christianity arose, not because Christian dogma is true.
Of course the same may be said of each and every religion. It is only the adherents of a religion that think their religion is exempt from the rule.
I am interested in explaining a fact: i.e. Christians believe in a next world (among other things).
It is my view that Christians believe what they believe because of the historical context in which Christianity arose, not because Christian dogma is true.
Of course the same may be said of each and every religion. It is only the adherents of a religion that think their religion is exempt from the rule.
Post #19
keithprosser3 wrote:It is my view that Christians believe what they believe because of the historical context in which Christianity arose, not because Christian dogma is true.
Wrong views will not stand up against the truth. A believer in Christ has been called to the truth. Christianity is the process to that truth.
Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
What rule is that?Of course the same may be said of each and every religion. It is only the adherents of a religion that think their religion is exempt from the rule.
