Sexuality & Orientation: A question.

[marketandchurch]

This is a question I am very curious about, vis-a-vis the Christian/Muslim/Jew crowd. But atheists are welcome to chime in as well. Do you think sexuality is fixed?

If you think sexuality is fixed, what is your own personal explanation for the existence of other sexualities? Are there several possibilities vis-a-vis orientation, for the human creature? And by fixed nature, what do you believe is the strength of that rigidity?

Do you think it is somewhat of a spectrum wherein there are most of us, who have a fixed heterosexual orientation, a small group who have a fixed homosexual orientation, and an even tinier portion who are "confused," have multiple sexual identities, or no sexual identity at all?

In other words, please explain your view of the matter in full, and I would love to just get a cross-section of where Christians/Muslim/Jew are on the matter. It is incredibly helpful, because the premise we hold will frame the way we approach the issue of same-sex marriage.

Feel free to expand this to the greater Gay-Marriage debate if you wish, so long as it relates to gender, sexual orientation, and its affects on the society at large.

[Bust Nak]

I'm not aware of this evidence. What studies have suggested this?

I am referring to the existence of "ex-gays."

"Ex-gays" are still gay. They may be in denial and living a "heterosexual" "lifestyle," but their orientations are still homosexual.

I tend to class them as bisexauls. But until we have a way to test someone's sexuality without ethical problems, we have to go with self-reporting/self-identify.

[Goat]

I'm not aware of this evidence. What studies have suggested this?

I am referring to the existence of "ex-gays."

"Ex-gays" are still gay. They may be in denial and living a "heterosexual" "lifestyle," but their orientations are still homosexual.

I tend to class them as bisexauls. But until we have a way to test someone's sexuality without ethical problems, we have to go with self-reporting/self-identify.

Not all the time. Two of the 'founders' of Exodus that had been 'converted' fell in love, and got into a relationship with each other... after running away from Exodus.

[charles_hamm]

I think sexuality is definitely fixed--to a great extent at birth. If you are feeling "fluidity" in your sexual preference, you are most likely bisexual. (Most bisexuals I know personally tend to lean more toward one gender than the other--but I'm sure this is not always the case.) Attempts to change a person's sexual orientation are damaging and immoral--and they cannot succeed. In my opinion, people who claim to be "ex-gay" are either bisexual or they have been pressured into living a lie and are wreaking havok in the lives of those they have lured into living this lie with them.

Your statement made me think. Would you say the same things about a man who was married for say 15 years and suddenly came out as being gay? Would the attempt to change his sexual orientation from straight to gay be damaging and immoral? Should he be called bisexual rather than homosexual?

The reason I ask is because I've noticed that it seems like most people tend to believe someone who says they've been gay and are just coming out late and don't believe someone who says I was gay but I wanted to change.

I think the longer the lie is lived the more devastating it is for the other people involved--especially the spouse and children. But it is also devastating for the person "coming out" as well. He has to live with the guilt of knowing he has harmed others, and he will probably have a great deal of anger toward those people or institutions that pressured him into living this lie to begin with. And it will probably affect his ability to have a successful gay relationship in the future.

You are now assuming that it was a 'lie' he was living. Why is it assumed that the previous time of being heterosexual was a 'lie' and now that the person has said that he/she is homosexual that is the 'truth'? Wouldn't the default position be that he has told a lie one of the two times, but there's no way we can know which one?

It has been demonstrated over and over again that "therapies" meant to change sexual orientation are ineffective and psychologically damaging. Once this is known, it does become a moral issue for those who continue to offer it. Unfortunately, we still live in a society where being gay can mean rejection and even abuse. So it would not be surprising for children who realize they are gay to want to change at first. Children want to fit in with the majority of their peers. I am hopeful that the day will come when these children will be just as supported and celebrated as their straight peers.

Who said anything about therapy? I asked why people do not believe a person who says I don't want to be gay anymore. If a persons sexuality is not a choice then why shouldn't we assume that a man who says he is gay at age 40 is not telling the truth since he was straight at age 39? Instead we assume that he either didn't know he was gay or was being held back from saying anything because of circumstances, but we don't ask for proof of either.

[charles_hamm]

I'm not aware of this evidence. What studies have suggested this?

I am referring to the existence of "ex-gays."

"Ex-gays" are still gay. They may be in denial and living a "heterosexual" "lifestyle," but their orientations are still homosexual.

By this logic, then "ex-heterosexuals" are still heterosexual. They may be in denial and living a "homosexual" lifestyle, but their orientations are still heterosexual.

[Goat]

I'm not aware of this evidence. What studies have suggested this?

I am referring to the existence of "ex-gays."

"Ex-gays" are still gay. They may be in denial and living a "heterosexual" "lifestyle," but their orientations are still homosexual.

By this logic, then "ex-heterosexuals" are still heterosexual. They may be in denial and living a "homosexual" lifestyle, but their orientations are still heterosexual.

That would be the case, except for one big difference. Society has put a lot of social punishments in place for not being heterosexual, and lots of rewards in place for being heterosexual. This is one sword that does not both ways.

[kayky]

You are now assuming that it was a 'lie' he was living. Why is it assumed that the previous time of being heterosexual was a 'lie' and now that the person has said that he/she is homosexual that is the 'truth'? Wouldn't the default position be that he has told a lie one of the two times, but there's no way we can know which one?

There is (and especially has been in the past) a great deal of pressure to be heterosexual. It is understandable that many gay people would pretend to be so. In every case that I have heard about in which this happens, the person admits he was gay all along.

Who said anything about therapy? I asked why people do not believe a person who says I don't want to be gay anymore. If a persons sexuality is not a choice then why shouldn't we assume that a man who says he is gay at age 40 is not telling the truth since he was straight at age 39? Instead we assume that he either didn't know he was gay or was being held back from saying anything because of circumstances, but we don't ask for proof of either.

Since most admit they were gay all along, it seems this would be a rare occurrence.

[marketandchurch]

[Replying to post 26 by Darias]

Excellent rebuttal, I'll reply to it next monday when I have time to sit down and deconstruct it.

[marketandchurch]

That's good to hear an atheist chime in. I expect the sample size of atheists to be more supportive of the "fluid" side of things, or at least more so then Christians, so its nice to see you break with my expectations.

Why would you expect that? It is generally Christians that think that gay people chose to be gay and that they can pray the gay away.

I don't know how I missed this point, but thank you for bringing it up.

Many Christians, add insult to injury when they accept the premise that Gay-advocates also happen to champion: Gender Is FIXED! They make this assumption because they do not know the war that took place to align the Western preference with the bible, and then(the worse part): assume that those who are Gay "chose" to be "wicked," or that the devil has a large part to play in it, having taken them from their true, natural, God-given, heterosexual identity.

Those homosexuals who grow up under a Christian context are encouraged to fight their "affliction," and that it can be cured by prayer. If you've seen any of these Christian camps that exist to "cure" a homosexual of their "ailment," a dominant view is that it is a battle not necessarily with their nature or their sexuality(because we all have a straight fixed gender), but with Satan and the forces of evil. I'm not challenging anything in the New Testament by bringing this up, and I think this Christian view is unnecessary, especially if they understood the history of homosexuality, and especially in the ancient, pre-Christian world. After all... we are living in the world Christianity made... it wasn't always like this.



Because let me as you Christians Pro-Marriage advocates something:

• If Gender is fixed, then what do you have to worry about vis-a-vis a straight child having two moms? If Gender is fixed, and most people have a fixed heterosexual default, and men will always only make love to women, then we have nothing to worry about, since a child raised by a homosexual couple will affirm whatever fixed gender they were born with.
  
  And children of straight couples, who are exposed to alternatives other then the male-female ideal, will not be affected by the homosexual behavior of others.

[connermt]

This is a question I am very curious about, vis-a-vis the Christian/Muslim/Jew crowd. But atheists are welcome to chime in as well. Do you think sexuality is fixed?

If you think sexuality is fixed, what is your own personal explanation for the existence of other sexualities? Are there several possibilities vis-a-vis orientation, for the human creature? And by fixed nature, what do you believe is the strength of that rigidity?

Do you think it is somewhat of a spectrum wherein there are most of us, who have a fixed heterosexual orientation, a small group who have a fixed homosexual orientation, and an even tinier portion who are "confused," have multiple sexual identities, or no sexual identity at all?

In other words, please explain your view of the matter in full, and I would love to just get a cross-section of where Christians/Muslim/Jew are on the matter. It is incredibly helpful, because the premise we hold will frame the way we approach the issue of same-sex marriage.

Feel free to expand this to the greater Gay-Marriage debate if you wish, so long as it relates to gender, sexual orientation, and its affects on the society at large.

Sexuality is a way for people to pigeonhole specifics to help better understand others. Beyond that, sexuality is a part of us - it can only be defined when necessary. Though it is something that is determined before we understand it as adults (I believe we don't fully understand it).
Gay straight bi tri poly......etc seems to be the main question. I don't think anyone is 100% gay or straight. Meaning, on a scale of 1-10 where 1 is straight and 10 is gay, most people are between 2 & 9, though they tend to favor a higher or lower number.
That is, if people are totally honest with themselves.

[charles_hamm]

I'm not aware of this evidence. What studies have suggested this?

I am referring to the existence of "ex-gays."

"Ex-gays" are still gay. They may be in denial and living a "heterosexual" "lifestyle," but their orientations are still homosexual.

By this logic, then "ex-heterosexuals" are still heterosexual. They may be in denial and living a "homosexual" lifestyle, but their orientations are still heterosexual.

That would be the case, except for one big difference. Society has put a lot of social punishments in place for not being heterosexual, and lots of rewards in place for being heterosexual. This is one sword that does not both ways.

My comment is directed more toward the fact that people seem to assume that someone who was gay can never change and is only lying about being heterosexual but someone who is heterosexual can just come out one day as being gay and it is assumed that he/she was always gay. It is a clear double standard.