The Divine Inspiration of the Constitution of the USA

[McCulloch]

Were they [the US Founders ] ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

Uh, yes.

Were the US Founders ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

[East of Eden]

Were they [the US Founders ] ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

Uh, yes.

Were the US Founders ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

The Founders believed so, and I believe that also.

[Darias]

[Replying to post 21 by East of Eden]

Can you maybe show some quotes or something that would indicate that the founders thought of themselves as prophets ordained by providence? I mean I know that some founders were deists and some were masons and some were Christians. I also know that at least some of them criticized Christianity mercilessly.

Whether or not they prayed for "guidance" is irrelevant. Those were well educated men who based the Constitution on philosophical underpinnings. It's hard for me to believe that they were clueless, or that Jesus just showed up and inspired them overnight -- like the story when Allah showed up and revealed revelations to Muhammad.

I just don't like the idea of religifying the founding fathers. It's like something out of Bioshock Infinite.

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[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 21:

Were the US Founders ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

The Founders believed so, and I believe that also.

And therein lies the rub. It matters not if I can show I speak truth, only that I believe.

[McCulloch]

The Founders believed so [that they were ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution], and I believe that also.

Was that all of the Founders or just a few of them? Which ones? How do you know?

[East of Eden]

The Founders believed so [that they were ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution], and I believe that also.

Was that all of the Founders or just a few of them? Which ones? How do you know?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...."

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 22:

The Founders believed so [that they were ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution], and I believe that also.

Was that all of the Founders or just a few of them? Which ones? How do you know?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...."

I would grant that by the ratification / presentation of this document, that it's fair to use the term "The Founders" as East of Eden has, even if we can't quite pin down the numbers.

As relates to the OP though, all I see is a bunch of folks thinking they've got them an ordaining, and nothing by which we can confirm a god was the cause of it.

[dianaiad]

From Post 21:

Were the US Founders ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

The Founders believed so, and I believe that also.

And therein lies the rub. It matters not if I can show I speak truth, only that I believe.

My friend, if the claim is "I believe," then the proof of that claim is in the statement.

It's only when the claim is "YOU have to believe..." that more is required. As for me, I'm not about to do that. Therein lies all sorts of mud filled sink holes.

I have a suspicion that God had a hand in the formation of this nation, and of the writing of the constitution. Shoot, I've been taught that He did. I know one thing for true; as bad a time as Mormonism had, as completely as it was shoved around (even out of the country altogether) freedom of religion/worship/anything else would have been close to impossible without the constitution, even when it was as selectively upheld as it was (and sometimes is, even now).

Whether the framers thought of themselves as inspired or not, I think they were.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 27:

From Post 21:

Were the US Founders ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

The Founders believed so, and I believe that also.

And therein lies the rub. It matters not if I can show I speak truth, only that I believe.

My friend, if the claim is "I believe," then the proof of that claim is in the statement.

'Cause we all know that since East of Eden believes these Founders were ordained by God, that means that well, don't it beat all, God done did him some ordaining!

I can believe I'm intelligent, that ain't gonna make it so.

It's only when the claim is "YOU have to believe..." that more is required. As for me, I'm not about to do that. Therein lies all sorts of mud filled sink holes.

Such holes are for those incapable of showing they speak truth.

I have a suspicion that God had a hand in the formation of this nation...

Your suspicions get us no closer to answering the OP's challenge than saddling up a goat gets it closer to being a horse.

Whether the framers thought of themselves as inspired or not, I think they were.

Ain't it great that folks who declare we're all created equal would hold as many slaves as they could.

[dianaiad]

From Post 27:

From Post 21:

Were the US Founders ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution?

The Founders believed so, and I believe that also.

And therein lies the rub. It matters not if I can show I speak truth, only that I believe.

My friend, if the claim is "I believe," then the proof of that claim is in the statement.

'Cause we all know that since East of Eden believes these Founders were ordained by God, that means that well, don't it beat all, God done did him some ordaining!

I can believe I'm intelligent, that ain't gonna make it so.

Nope...but it shows that you think you are, and if we trust your judgment, then that would be evidence in favor of the idea.

Or not.....

It's only when the claim is "YOU have to believe..." that more is required. As for me, I'm not about to do that. Therein lies all sorts of mud filled sink holes.

Such holes are for those incapable of showing they speak truth.

Possibly. You do, however, need to stop confusing "I believe..." with "this is the gospel truth and YOU have to take my word for it!" statements. They aren't the same thing.

I have a suspicion that God had a hand in the formation of this nation...

Your suspicions get us no closer to answering the OP's challenge than saddling up a goat gets it closer to being a horse.

Sure it is. It's perfectly acceptable to express an opinion on the matter.

Whether the framers thought of themselves as inspired or not, I think they were.

Ain't it great that folks who declare we're all created equal would hold as many slaves as they could.

Which, when you consider it, is rather good evidence that something Else might have been at work here. Consider: these WERE slaveowners, and yet they put language in the Constitution like this? Language that pointed up their own flaws and the weaknesses in their culture? Language that illustrated hypocrisy? It just seems odd to me that these men, who lived one way and wrote another, would strive so hard to put the WRITING in so permanent a place.

The Constitution in spite of themselves, perhaps?

Remember, when you look at them, their flaws did not prevent them from writing something pretty special, even when the differences between what they wrote, and the way they lived, are not complimentary to the way they lived.

It just seems to me that men who were entirely selfish, immersed in their own wishes and lifestyles would not write a document that would eventually destroy those lifestyles....like slavery.

That speaks, at least to me, of some 'outside' influence for 'good.'

[McCulloch]

The Founders believed so [that they were ordained by God to frame an eternal and inspired constitution], and I believe that also.

Was that all of the Founders or just a few of them? Which ones? How do you know?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...."

They held that these truths were self-evident, not necessarily divinely revealed.
That all white men are created equal. Women's and slaves' equality was to come later.
Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ...
The rights themselves are from the unnamed Creator not this particular expression of those rights. That the Creator endowed white men (and later women and black men) these rights was seen as self-evident according to the Founders.