Half of US Muslims: Criticism of Islam Should be a Crime

[East of Eden]

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/29 ... sts?page=7

Not only do half of US Muslims think criticism of their religion should be a crime, 40% want to be ruled by Sharia Law, not our Constitution.

One in five could not agree those who criticized Islam should be spared the death penalty.

Does anyone think this is not a problem?

[McCulloch]

Reaction to persecution commonly takes the form of 'honor killings' where persons recognized as being opposed to Islam (cartoonists, novelists, journalists, etc.) and even innocent bystanders are murdered in the street.

While I do not disagree with the ideas richardP presents, I must correct him on the use of the term honor killing to describe the murder of the opponents of Islam by Islamic fanatics. Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows:

• Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life. Men can also be the victims of honor killings by members of the family of a woman with whom they are perceived to have an inappropriate relationship. The loose term "honor killing" applies to killing of both men and women in cultures that practice it. Some women who bridge social divides, publicly engage other communities, or adopt some of the customs or the religion of an outside group may be attacked. In countries that receive immigrants, some otherwise low-status immigrant men and boys have asserted their dominant patriarchal status by inflicting honor killings on women family members who have participated in public life, for example, in feminist and integration politics.

The murder of critics and opponents of Islam is well documented, but the term honor killing applies to another form of Islamic murder.

When these [honor killings] happen, police do not interfere. In the rare circumstances when the authorities do become involved public mention or media reference to the religion is omitted.

In Canada, the police do lay charges and the courts find the perpetrators guilty. Shafia jury finds all guilty of 1st-degree murder

In the United States, the Supreme Court has already established that local police are under no obligation to defend citizens.

Just as in other cases of violence against women, the police cannot act against the offender until he breaks the law.

Finally, it should be noted that the kinder forms of non-muslim punishments are reserved for the 'people of the book'. The most severe punishments are commanded for persons such as homosexuals and atheists.

Thanks, we atheists are one of the most hated minorities around.

It's time to either convert to Islam or work against it,

The militant Muslims today are not a whole lot different ideologically from the militant Christians of about 600 years ago. Best to work against all forms of supernatural thinking, unbending dedication to speculative dogma.

While we are on the topic, we should remember to honor those brave men and women who have left Islam. Those who were once professing Muslims and later reject the faith do so with great peril.

including but not limited to bearing arms for self-defense.

A battle of ideas and principles is seldom won by armed individuals. If you anger a militant Muslim and they target you, a handgun is not going to do you a whole lot of good.

[Choir Loft]

It is a problem of the western societies how they shall react to it. And it is a problem of the Islam (to be exact, the orthodox Islam); changing their mind.
On the other hand western countries should not feign either, however.
It has not been a long time yet that the RCC had an authority which was called "sacred Inquisition". It was permitted to these to kill dissidents and heterodox or to force them to faith change. There were the witch trials of Salem and politically the McCarth (e) y era in the USA. Salafists have if the news tried to murder political opponents.
It is a problem! And, if the Islam is not ready to reform himself for a long time, it always will remain a problem!

"There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it."
- Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister of Turkey (since March 14, 2003)

The greatest self-deception of the west in both religious and secular groups is that there are internal differences in Islam which may lead to moderation. There are none. At least there is no evidence of any that presents itself to the outside world. The only rumor of change I am aware of is the isolated voice or two for women's rights, which in Islam are nonexistent. In Saudi Arabia, for example, women aren't even licensed to drive vehicles.

"those who studied the religion should not allow our religion to be misrepresented to fit into a scheme that wants to paint the religion of Islam as non-violent. Islam is not non-violent."
MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN

"There is no real dialogue, since Muslims never reciprocate the goodwill gestures made by the Christians. The result is we sit down together, and the Christians say what a wonderful religion Islam is, and the Muslims say what a wonderful religion Islam is."
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Imam of Park 51) (1)

I suppose if it were possible Islam may be persuaded to soften, but as there is no internal evidence of this process commencing there is also no evidence of external pressure being brought to bear either. It's as if the entire world shudders in fear at the prospects of the aggression of this religion. A new, possibly more disasterous form of appeasement is at hand in the west. In the 1930s, such a policy led to WWII. Appeasement doesn't work, neither does using the Arab nations and Islam itself as a patsy, an excuse, to justify constant war as the United States has done.

"We ask Allah to turn this Ramadan into a month of glory, vitory, and might, to hoist high the banner of religion, to strengthen Islam and the Muslims, to humiliate polytheism and polytheists, to wave the banner of monotheism, to firmly plant the banner of jihad, and to smite the perverts and the obstinate."
- Sheikh Aamer bin Abdallah al-Aamer 2004

Finally I wish to leave the reader with another tidbit of information. The 'banner of religion' mentioned above is also called the flag of jihad. The flag of jihad is a black rectangle with white arabic text written on it. Sometimes the text is yellow, but in most instances its white. Sometimes an automatic weapon is pictured below the text. The arab text is the shahada, the statement of faith ('There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.'). The use of the shahada on a flag is common in Muslim countries. The flag of Saudi Arabia, for example, is green with white shahada text and a white sword at the bottom.

The flag of religion, of jihad, is often seen in public parades and demonstrations of Muslim agitation. It's also been adopted by an international organization. Perhaps you've heard of them; Al Qaeda.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS

(1) Park 51 is the controversial Muslim mosque and learning center established in New York City near ground zero, the former location of the twin towers of the World Trade Center.

[dusk]

"There is no real dialogue, since Muslims never reciprocate the goodwill gestures made by the Christians. The result is we sit down together, and the Christians say what a wonderful religion Islam is, and the Muslims say what a wonderful religion Islam is."
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Imam of Park 51) (1)

I found this quote interesting and quite true so I looked it up.
First I thought you misquoted but as wikipedia says Ibn Warraq said that Rauf said this yet doesn't seem to act any different despite this supposed realization.

I also have to agree that when you see more intelligent debates where Jews, Christians in their liberal form show up and talk nice about all kinds of philosophical things the Muslims seem rather incapable of such a thing. They cannot go beyond their tribe.

Generally I think Islam is a tribal religion of how and with which to run a a tribe/a nation of sorts. It simply isn't a wise insightful philosophical construct which does any good today in a globalized world. All it accomplishes is help disillusioned young people in poor countries vent their anger against whatever they can find. If there was no Israel or Oil ignoring them would probably work wonders and not taking them seriously unless they leave the tribal BS behind.

Globalization and the Internet creates this conflict which would really happen if all our interaction was a couple of business men showing up every once in a while and disappearing again.
I also don't see how they can actually get a liberal democracy going with any Islam but if our fundamentalist Christians had a say things wouldn't be all dandy either. Fundy Christians are only a newer development and not a majority in a country with little education.

Honor killings btw aren't only a Muslim thing. India isn't much better despite their supposed peaceful Hindus. They still stone people occasionally in some of their rural parts. Family honor is important there. It is simply an entirely different culture. In the west we simply ignore all this nonsense that you can find in the old testament just fine and was quite normal for a long time.

I think Islam at its core is really not compatible with liberal democratic values. If you water it down enough and don't have all the militant hopeless uneducated jobless, it wouldn't be any worse than some orthodox jews or Christians of all sorts.
I do think though that the philosophy behind the religion ought to be talked about more and criticized, which too often it isn't, because the noisiest are often the somewhat hypcritical Christians defending their "Christian Nations" and many liberals are scared to be put into the same basket with those hypocrits. A religion that cannot deal with the occasional mockery in songs or newspapers doesn't imo deserve any sort of respect. If you cannot handle criticism there is just no place in a liberal democracy.

I also think that teaching Muslims in the west and the world in general that criticism is something they have to learn to deal with is important and one of the first steps. A lot seems to revolve around the issue of their insulted honor but the global world doesn't care about the honor of fools, it cares about their behavior and respect is something you have to earn first.

[East of Eden]

The militant Muslims today are not a whole lot different ideologically from the militant Christians of about 600 years ago.

Or the militant atheists of a century ago.

What you ignore is the Muslims do their crimes because of the word and deed of the prophet, Christians who did such things did them despite the word and deeds of Jesus, who harmed nobody. They were certainly ignoring this:

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside.

I Cor. 5:12-13

[Choir Loft]

"There is no real dialogue, since Muslims never reciprocate the goodwill gestures made by the Christians. The result is we sit down together, and the Christians say what a wonderful religion Islam is, and the Muslims say what a wonderful religion Islam is."
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Imam of Park 51) (1)

I found this quote interesting and quite true so I looked it up.
First I thought you misquoted but as wikipedia says Ibn Warraq said that Rauf said this yet doesn't seem to act any different despite this supposed realization.

I also have to agree that when you see more intelligent debates where Jews, Christians in their liberal form show up and talk nice about all kinds of philosophical things the Muslims seem rather incapable of such a thing. They cannot go beyond their tribe.

Generally I think Islam is a tribal religion of how and with which to run a a tribe/a nation of sorts. It simply isn't a wise insightful philosophical construct which does any good today in a globalized world. All it accomplishes is help disillusioned young people in poor countries vent their anger against whatever they can find. If there was no Israel or Oil ignoring them would probably work wonders and not taking them seriously unless they leave the tribal BS behind.

Globalization and the Internet creates this conflict which would really happen if all our interaction was a couple of business men showing up every once in a while and disappearing again.
I also don't see how they can actually get a liberal democracy going with any Islam but if our fundamentalist Christians had a say things wouldn't be all dandy either. Fundy Christians are only a newer development and not a majority in a country with little education.

Honor killings btw aren't only a Muslim thing. India isn't much better despite their supposed peaceful Hindus. They still stone people occasionally in some of their rural parts. Family honor is important there. It is simply an entirely different culture. In the west we simply ignore all this nonsense that you can find in the old testament just fine and was quite normal for a long time.

I think Islam at its core is really not compatible with liberal democratic values. If you water it down enough and don't have all the militant hopeless uneducated jobless, it wouldn't be any worse than some orthodox jews or Christians of all sorts.
I do think though that the philosophy behind the religion ought to be talked about more and criticized, which too often it isn't, because the noisiest are often the somewhat hypcritical Christians defending their "Christian Nations" and many liberals are scared to be put into the same basket with those hypocrits. A religion that cannot deal with the occasional mockery in songs or newspapers doesn't imo deserve any sort of respect. If you cannot handle criticism there is just no place in a liberal democracy.

I also think that teaching Muslims in the west and the world in general that criticism is something they have to learn to deal with is important and one of the first steps. A lot seems to revolve around the issue of their insulted honor but the global world doesn't care about the honor of fools, it cares about their behavior and respect is something you have to earn first.

I've been reading and rereading your post. It goes without saying that although I can't agree with you 100% I am forced to commend you on your scholarship regarding Islamic intent, culture and purpose. Your summation goes in a direction I hadn't considered (tribal culture). I intend to explore that line myself. Thank you.

In a nutshell, that's all I'm trying to do here - to get folks to do their own homework.

The Muslim threat to intelligent discussion and a culture that will allow it is real. I bemoan the retreat the west has taken in light of this assault. WWII should have taught us that appeasement is unwise and deadly, yet we have forgotten the lesson.

Every time history repeats itself the cost goes up.

Keep on studying. You do well. I wish only that others would do the same, alas we are stuck in a cultural morass of illiterate opinion.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[The Ex-Mormon]

The Muslim definition of persecution is anything or anyone who opposes Islam. This includes statements of criticism whether they be true or not. Such criticism may be spoken by a Muslim, but not by a dhimmi(1).

@ Richard,

May i ask you a single stupid question? Are you a former MORMON? And, if yes, did you know, that the LDS leaders did exactly the same thing, even some Christian churches (including the RCC and some Lutheran denominations in differend areas and ages?
What would I say with this? People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
slam is, like Christianity, a monotheistic religion. Glorify violence and misogynist. These are homophobic, and often racist and anti-Semitic. So, Islam is no better or worse than fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. and elsewhere.

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to post 36 by The Ex-Mormon]

Old business first, I'm not a former Mormon. I've not studied the religion in depth.

I've been studying Islam, however, and just finished reading the Qur'an cover to cover. Hadith literature is next, I think. In addition, I've read stuff written by Muslims themselves as well as essays and books written about their theology. Finally, I've spoken to several Muslims about minor points in their ideology. These were non-adversarial issues, but ideas which I found them to be ignorant of considering they could be found in one of their own holy books; Qur'an.

I take issue with your statement that Islam "is no better or worse than fundamentalist Christians in the US and elsewhere."

Your lack of scholarship is showing here, filled in with extreme bias against Christianity. Let me explain.

Whether you believe it or not, all the other religions on the planet are far more tolerant than Islam, including the faith of Jesus. I encourage you to do some study on the matter.

In every culture where Islam collides with the established religion, heads roll. Quite literally. The pattern has repeated itself over and over since Mohammad marched into Mecca at the head of a conquering army (as opposed to Jesus who rode into Jerusalem unarmed on a donkey).

The ancient Assyrian religion fell to the advancing Muslim armies and in the east the Hindu is at war with them to this very day. The Crusades were a defensive action by the church and a response to the Muslim attack upon the Byzantine empire in the east and military advances into the Iberian peninsula in the west. At one point Muslim armies advanced as far as Vienna, Austria.

The fall of the fortress city of Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey), which was the western terminus of the silk road trade route to China and the east, led directly to Columbus' discovery of the new world. He was looking for a new trade route AROUND the expanding Muslim empire, you see. Look it up.

Christendom has had its dark moments, but Islam wallows in it. Islam is very unforgiving. The core of Christianity is peace, but the basis of Islam is jihad (some within the faith insist it should be added as a sixth pillar of the faith).

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free.
Surah 9.5

The above is also referred to as the 'verse of the sword'. Surah 9 is full of that sort of rhetoric. While the Old Testament of the Bible mentions war, those battles were specific to a time and place and goal. Islam is general and applies to all cultures and all men everywhere as far as persecution and non-cooperation is concerned.

Finally it should be noted that Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light".

Islam is THE ONLY religion on the planet with two doctrines to justify lying.

taqiyya - (concealment) A muslim may lie about what they believe, denying aspects of their faith that are offensive [to others].
- [Qur'an 16:106]

kitman - (mental reservation, the telling of partial truth with intention to deceive or mislead)
"the scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse."
- Ibn Kathir

Whether you agree with the precepts of fundamental Christianity or not isn't the issue here. The basic truth is that Islam is the single most dangerous, intolerant, murderous and deceitful religion on the planet. There is no comparison to any other. Islam is by far WORSE than any human standard of decency and respect.

Do your homework. You owe it to yourself and the way you want to live your own life.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[The Ex-Mormon]

@ RichardP.,

The Christianity and the Judaism also knew and knows violence in their history. I only remind of the "holy Inquisition", the burnings of witches and the murder of Jews who did not want to convert. And of course to the force to Christianity of heathen peoples (like the Indian and the African) which were often made to slaves. The slavery was btw., justified with the Bible.
Of course the (political) Islam is so philanthropic like a constant diarrhea; but this is also the (political) Christianity!
And I wanted to make only this clear.
If you point with a finger on the Islam, four fingers point at you, the Christian!

[Choir Loft]

@ RichardP.,

The Christianity and the Judaism also knew and knows violence in their history. I only remind of the "holy Inquisition", the burnings of witches and the murder of Jews who did not want to convert. And of course to the force to Christianity of heathen peoples (like the Indian and the African) which were often made to slaves. The slavery was btw., justified with the Bible.
Of course the (political) Islam is so philanthropic like a constant diarrhea; but this is also the (political) Christianity!
And I wanted to make only this clear.
If you point with a finger on the Islam, four fingers point at you, the Christian!

If one Christian in a moment of time in history stumbled, is that sufficient cause to damn all who practice the faith for all time? This is true in the mind of the one who enjoys bashing the faithful. It isn't true if one examines the lives and history of the saints in general.

Are murder and lies across history and on a global scale evident in Christianity? They are not. But they are indeed at the root and stem and flower of Islam.

Is membership in the church voluntary or is it extorted? It is voluntary in Christianity, while those who do not join the faith in a Muslim country are treated as second class citizens (dhimmi) along with regular beatings, taxes and public ridicule.

In a climate of hate and political warfare, truth is always the first casualty.

Finally, when pointing to historical events either good or bad one thing becomes quite clear in our modern examination of the two religions.

That was then and this is now.

What is happening now? What is the difference now? How shall we judge them today? Those are the questions and the answers which are without doubt, given a certain open-mindedness and lack of bigotry.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[East of Eden]

@ RichardP.,

The Christianity and the Judaism also knew and knows violence in their history. I only remind of the "holy Inquisition", the burnings of witches and the murder of Jews who did not want to convert. And of course to the force to Christianity of heathen peoples (like the Indian and the African) which were often made to slaves. The slavery was btw., justified with the Bible.
Of course the (political) Islam is so philanthropic like a constant diarrhea; but this is also the (political) Christianity!
And I wanted to make only this clear.
If you point with a finger on the Islam, four fingers point at you, the Christian!

Nonsense, almost all terror attacks today are from Muslims, often against their co-religionists. How many are done by Christians? You mentioned anti-Semitism earlier, Muslims have pretty much a monopoly on that that, Jew-hate is part and parcel of Islam. By contrast, Israel has no greater friends than evangelical Christians.