Remove 'in god we trust'

[Richard81]

Having God on our currency and in our Pledge of Allegiance fuels the false belief that the United States is a Christian nation. As declared in the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, "...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This was signed by president John Adams. Having God in our currency and in our Pledge of Allegiance directly disrespects those among us who are not of the Christian faith, and it should be removed.

I took that from this site https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... e/sx9gbfgW
It is a petition to remove 'God' from our currency and pledge of allegiance. Do you agree that this should be done? Why or why not? If you do, please sign this petition.

[East of Eden]

[Replying to post 216 by East of Eden]

Below is a proposal by the President of the American Atheists to Congress as to why it is unconstitutional.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, American Atheists is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated "to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways, the complete and absolute separation of state and church." [FOOTNOTE: From the "Aims and Purposes" of American Atheists as recorded in documents of incorporation.] It is with this purpose in mind that our interest has been drawn to H.R. 3314, a bill "to modernize United States circulating coin designs for which one reverse will have a theme of the Bicentennial of the Constitution" now under consideration by the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs and Coinage. American Atheists are staunch supporters and defenders of both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution of the United States. Our Constitution was a pioneer document among the founding documents of nations in that it nowhere contained a single reference to a deity or divine inspiration. Instead it began by rooting its authority in "We the People," a direct and poignant departure from the divine right of kings from which so many of our forefathers fled to these shores. The importance of the doctrine of separation of state and church for all Americans cannot then be overestimated. It was the marriage of state and church that compelled many of the settlers and immigrants to this country to flee their native lands and seek a country where religion was not an integral part of the government.

American Atheists, therefore, applauds the introduction of H.R. 3314 in the House of Representatives by Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-NY), Rep. Lindy Boggs (D-LA), Rep. Carroll A. Campbell, Jr. (R-SC), and Rep. Thomas E. Petri (R-WI). We feel that it is high time that the Constitution of the United States be honored, particularly in its bicentennial year of 1989, by the government of the United States. We have no objection to the coins of the United States being used as a vehicle to commemorate that two-hundredth anniversary. Such a commemoration is secular in nature and is in keeping with the laws of the United States, in particular the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment.

We do, however, object to the fact that pursuant to 31 U.S.C. Section 324 ("Inscriptions on Coins," May 18, 1908) and 31 U.S.C. Section 324a ("Inscriptions on Currency and Coins," July 11, 1955) the coins proposed by H.R. 3314 would bear upon them the motto "In God We Trust." It is our position that the inclusion of that motto on coins and currency violates the Free Speech, Free Exercise and Establishment clauses of the First Amendment and the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States in that it is a religious phrase showing that the government has selected and established a particular monotheistic type of religion. Atheists, as other citizens, must carry with them at all times and "present" this religious slogan, presumably as their own, every time they purchase with cash. It, therefore, violates the Free Exercise clause.

In addition, Atheists cannot remove this religious slogan because there is a criminal law (18 U.S.C. Sections 331 and 333) prohibiting same, and thus they are denied the right of free speech and equal protection under the laws, being forced to speak the religious words of Congress by repeatedly presenting the religious motto and slogan adopted by the United States Congress. We also find it particularly inappropriate, in conjunction with the thrust of H.R. 3314, to slander the founding document that this bill purports to commemorate by including such religious graffiti as the motto "In God We Trust" along with the designs suggested by the bill. It would be far more in keeping with the nature of the document that H.R. 3314 seeks to commemorate to have the coins on which such commemoration appears remain as secular as the Constitution itself. We would like to propose the substitution of the phrase "E Pluribus Unum" for the motto "In God We Trust." The historical importance of that phrase and its origin was presented succinctly in a paper read at the Annual Convention of the American Numismatic Association, Buffalo, N.Y., August 23 to 28, 1930, by C. W. Foster, entitled "Origin and History of the Two Mottoes Used on Modern United States Coins."

Good luck, until you get the SCOTUS to agree with that opinion it means nothing. They would have to overturn their own precedent. In Zorach v. Clauson (1952), the Supreme Court held that the nation's "institutions presuppose a Supreme Being" and that government recognition of God does not constitute the establishment of a state church as the Constitution's authors intended to prohibit.

The motto has bee reaffirmed by Congress within the last decade. From Wikipedia:

"In 2006, on the 50th anniversary of its adoption, the Senate reaffirmed "In God we trust" as the official national motto of the United States of America.[17] In 2011 the House of Representatives passed an additional resolution reaffirming "In God we trust" as the official motto of the United States, in a 396-9 vote.[18][19] According to a 2003 joint poll by USA Today, CNN, and Gallup, 90% of Americans support the inscription "In God We Trust" on U.S. coins.[20]

Feisal Abdul Rauf, a Muslim imam writes that the phrase “In God we trust� resonates with Islamic teaching, offering two verses from the Qur’an: "Our Lord, we have indeed heard a Crier calling to faith, saying 'Trust in your Lord, so we have trusted..." (Quran 3:193) or "[The messenger and the believers] trust in God, in His Angels, His Scriptures, His Books and His Messengers..." (Quran 2:285).[23] Similarly, Melkote Ramaswamy, an Hindu American scholar, writes that the presence of the phrase “In God we trust� on American currency is a reminder that “there is God everywhere, whether we are conscious or not.� [24] In Judaism and Christianity, the official motto "In God we trust" resounds with several verses from the Bible, including Psalm 118:8, Psalm 118:8, Psalm 40:3, Psalm 73:28, and Proverbs 29:27.[25]"

Sounds like the motto has unified support from Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Jews, does it not? The atheists will just have to find a way to man up and carry on. Cuba beckons.

[PhiloKGB]

Why don't you think it is establishment if you believe the motto violates the establishment clause?

I'm guessing this question is worded incorrectly. And is a complete no sequitur to boot.

Now then...

Why do you think the mere absence of religious symbolism is an establishment of atheism?

[East of Eden]

Why don't you think it is establishment if you believe the motto violates the establishment clause?

I'm guessing this question is worded incorrectly. And is a complete no sequitur to boot.

Now then...

Why do you think the mere absence of religious symbolism is an establishment of atheism?

If you're not going to answer my question, I'm not going to answer yours.

[WinePusher]

[Replying to post 216 by East of Eden]

Below is a proposal by the President of the American Atheists to Congress as to why it is unconstitutional.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, American Atheists is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated "to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways, the complete and absolute separation of state and church." [FOOTNOTE: From the "Aims and Purposes" of American Atheists as recorded in documents of incorporation.] It is with this purpose in mind that our interest has been drawn to H.R. 3314, a bill "to modernize United States circulating coin designs for which one reverse will have a theme of the Bicentennial of the Constitution" now under consideration by the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs and Coinage. American Atheists are staunch supporters and defenders of both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution of the United States. Our Constitution was a pioneer document among the founding documents of nations in that it nowhere contained a single reference to a deity or divine inspiration. Instead it began by rooting its authority in "We the People," a direct and poignant departure from the divine right of kings from which so many of our forefathers fled to these shores. The importance of the doctrine of separation of state and church for all Americans cannot then be overestimated. It was the marriage of state and church that compelled many of the settlers and immigrants to this country to flee their native lands and seek a country where religion was not an integral part of the government.

American Atheists, therefore, applauds the introduction of H.R. 3314 in the House of Representatives by Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-NY), Rep. Lindy Boggs (D-LA), Rep. Carroll A. Campbell, Jr. (R-SC), and Rep. Thomas E. Petri (R-WI). We feel that it is high time that the Constitution of the United States be honored, particularly in its bicentennial year of 1989, by the government of the United States. We have no objection to the coins of the United States being used as a vehicle to commemorate that two-hundredth anniversary. Such a commemoration is secular in nature and is in keeping with the laws of the United States, in particular the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment.

We do, however, object to the fact that pursuant to 31 U.S.C. Section 324 ("Inscriptions on Coins," May 18, 1908) and 31 U.S.C. Section 324a ("Inscriptions on Currency and Coins," July 11, 1955) the coins proposed by H.R. 3314 would bear upon them the motto "In God We Trust." It is our position that the inclusion of that motto on coins and currency violates the Free Speech, Free Exercise and Establishment clauses of the First Amendment and the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States in that it is a religious phrase showing that the government has selected and established a particular monotheistic type of religion. Atheists, as other citizens, must carry with them at all times and "present" this religious slogan, presumably as their own, every time they purchase with cash. It, therefore, violates the Free Exercise clause.

In addition, Atheists cannot remove this religious slogan because there is a criminal law (18 U.S.C. Sections 331 and 333) prohibiting same, and thus they are denied the right of free speech and equal protection under the laws, being forced to speak the religious words of Congress by repeatedly presenting the religious motto and slogan adopted by the United States Congress. We also find it particularly inappropriate, in conjunction with the thrust of H.R. 3314, to slander the founding document that this bill purports to commemorate by including such religious graffiti as the motto "In God We Trust" along with the designs suggested by the bill. It would be far more in keeping with the nature of the document that H.R. 3314 seeks to commemorate to have the coins on which such commemoration appears remain as secular as the Constitution itself. We would like to propose the substitution of the phrase "E Pluribus Unum" for the motto "In God We Trust." The historical importance of that phrase and its origin was presented succinctly in a paper read at the Annual Convention of the American Numismatic Association, Buffalo, N.Y., August 23 to 28, 1930, by C. W. Foster, entitled "Origin and History of the Two Mottoes Used on Modern United States Coins."

We have millions of people suffering because of a weak economy. We have millions of people being slaughtered in Syria, we have thousands of people who are homeless because of Hurricane Sandy. And what are the American Atheists concerned about? They're concerned about the motto "In God We Trust" on our money and in our pledge.

[PhiloKGB]

If you're not going to answer my question, I'm not going to answer yours.

What is the point of this?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

We have millions of people suffering because of a weak economy. We have millions of people being slaughtered in Syria, we have thousands of people who are homeless because of Hurricane Sandy. And what are the American Atheists concerned about? They're concerned about the motto "In God We Trust" on our money and in our pledge.

This is a good example of the informal "starving children" fallacy. (As in, "how can you complain about x when there are children starving in Africa?")

Arguing that expressing concern about a (relatively) small problem means that the person doesn't care about any larger problems. A type of Strawman, this fallacy takes the opponent's claim and appends to it the following additional claims:

- That it is not possible to care about big and small problems simultaneously.
- That venting a minor complaint is sufficient proof that the major problem is considered unimportant.
- That if the person irritated over the minor problem did help solve or even cared about the big problems, he would then not mind at all that his car broke down or whatever the frustration was...or because there are people with worse problems, that person shouldn't complain about a frustration.

The intent is to distort the opponent's claim X into "X, which is far more important than anything else."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... seProblems

[PhiloKGB]

We have millions of people suffering because of a weak economy. We have millions of people being slaughtered in Syria, we have thousands of people who are homeless because of Hurricane Sandy. And what are the American Atheists concerned about? They're concerned about the motto "In God We Trust" on our money and in our pledge.

That's right, American Atheists. If you're not working on THE BIG PROBLEMS (as defined by WinePusher) 24-7, then shut up.

There's a name for this fallacy, though it escapes me at the moment.

[Nickman]

[Replying to post 224 by WinePusher]

This was from 1988. The focus has changed quite a bit since.

[Nickman]

[Replying to post 227 by PhiloKGB]

Its called a straw man because he attacked a completely different issue and acts triumphant as if he rebutted the actual subject at hand.

[East of Eden]

[Replying to post 216 by East of Eden]

Below is a proposal by the President of the American Atheists to Congress as to why it is unconstitutional.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, American Atheists is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated "to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways, the complete and absolute separation of state and church." [FOOTNOTE: From the "Aims and Purposes" of American Atheists as recorded in documents of incorporation.] It is with this purpose in mind that our interest has been drawn to H.R. 3314, a bill "to modernize United States circulating coin designs for which one reverse will have a theme of the Bicentennial of the Constitution" now under consideration by the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs and Coinage. American Atheists are staunch supporters and defenders of both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution of the United States. Our Constitution was a pioneer document among the founding documents of nations in that it nowhere contained a single reference to a deity or divine inspiration. Instead it began by rooting its authority in "We the People," a direct and poignant departure from the divine right of kings from which so many of our forefathers fled to these shores. The importance of the doctrine of separation of state and church for all Americans cannot then be overestimated. It was the marriage of state and church that compelled many of the settlers and immigrants to this country to flee their native lands and seek a country where religion was not an integral part of the government.

American Atheists, therefore, applauds the introduction of H.R. 3314 in the House of Representatives by Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-NY), Rep. Lindy Boggs (D-LA), Rep. Carroll A. Campbell, Jr. (R-SC), and Rep. Thomas E. Petri (R-WI). We feel that it is high time that the Constitution of the United States be honored, particularly in its bicentennial year of 1989, by the government of the United States. We have no objection to the coins of the United States being used as a vehicle to commemorate that two-hundredth anniversary. Such a commemoration is secular in nature and is in keeping with the laws of the United States, in particular the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment.

We do, however, object to the fact that pursuant to 31 U.S.C. Section 324 ("Inscriptions on Coins," May 18, 1908) and 31 U.S.C. Section 324a ("Inscriptions on Currency and Coins," July 11, 1955) the coins proposed by H.R. 3314 would bear upon them the motto "In God We Trust." It is our position that the inclusion of that motto on coins and currency violates the Free Speech, Free Exercise and Establishment clauses of the First Amendment and the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States in that it is a religious phrase showing that the government has selected and established a particular monotheistic type of religion. Atheists, as other citizens, must carry with them at all times and "present" this religious slogan, presumably as their own, every time they purchase with cash. It, therefore, violates the Free Exercise clause.

In addition, Atheists cannot remove this religious slogan because there is a criminal law (18 U.S.C. Sections 331 and 333) prohibiting same, and thus they are denied the right of free speech and equal protection under the laws, being forced to speak the religious words of Congress by repeatedly presenting the religious motto and slogan adopted by the United States Congress. We also find it particularly inappropriate, in conjunction with the thrust of H.R. 3314, to slander the founding document that this bill purports to commemorate by including such religious graffiti as the motto "In God We Trust" along with the designs suggested by the bill. It would be far more in keeping with the nature of the document that H.R. 3314 seeks to commemorate to have the coins on which such commemoration appears remain as secular as the Constitution itself. We would like to propose the substitution of the phrase "E Pluribus Unum" for the motto "In God We Trust." The historical importance of that phrase and its origin was presented succinctly in a paper read at the Annual Convention of the American Numismatic Association, Buffalo, N.Y., August 23 to 28, 1930, by C. W. Foster, entitled "Origin and History of the Two Mottoes Used on Modern United States Coins."

We have millions of people suffering because of a weak economy. We have millions of people being slaughtered in Syria, we have thousands of people who are homeless because of Hurricane Sandy. And what are the American Atheists concerned about? They're concerned about the motto "In God We Trust" on our money and in our pledge.

Much like the militant gay lobby, their cause trumps all.