Paedobaptism

[McCulloch]

Question for debate, "Is the baptism of babies and children justified?"

There are no instructions or examples of the baptism of babies or children in the Bible, yet many Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist and others) perform baptism on babies. Why?

Other Christian churches (Baptist, Anabaptist, Restoration, Mormon, Pentecostal, Orthodox and others) will only baptize those who can themselves profess belief.

Can either practice be taught biblically? Should one or the other side of this division between Christians give up their practice for the sake of Christian unity?

[youngborean]

Good question. I think it centers around an individual's view of Baptism more than anything. The point being what does Baptism do? Some groups contend that the baptism of water is necessary for salvation. If that is their perspective than the way in which the Baptism is carried out is significant. Within this split one group could be saying that salvation is administered to infants through another person. There is no example of anyone in scripture being baptized other than by choice from my reading. But to me that doesn't make people bad for wanting to baptize their babies. I see them as wanting them to know and love the Lord like they do, in essence. These people are probably not using the literal word for their justification anyway. I would disagree with the effectiveness of infant baptism, but I would never imply an evil intent behind it on behalf of the parents. Then again I would probably also disagree with some Baptists who held to the view that water Baptism is a part of salvation.

[Lotan]

There are no instructions or examples of the baptism of babies or children in the Bible, yet many Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist and others) perform baptism on babies. Why?

Because they're superstitious?

[1John2_26]

Question for debate, "Is the baptism of babies and children justified?"

There are no instructions or examples of the baptism of babies or children in the Bible, yet many Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist and others) perform baptism on babies. Why?

Other Christian churches (Baptist, Anabaptist, Restoration, Mormon, Pentecostal, Orthodox and others) will only baptize those who can themselves profess belief.

Can either practice be taught biblically? Should one or the other side of this division between Christians give up their practice for the sake of Christian unity?

I was invited to a conference (a meeting really) on the teachings of Catholicism and I decided against it. There is mention that entire "households" were baptised into Christ and there is the idea that baptism is not a requirement "of" salvation. But, the Jews seem intent on ritual immersion playing a key role to inclusion.

Christians can agree to disagree on the subject of baptism (ritual immersion) because "unbelief" is not the issue. There is no position of "unrepentance" in an "non-baptised" person.

I have children that have not been water-baptised and although my views are well-known here and elsewhere, I believe that God is in charge of my children's salvation. Didn't Jesus indicate the nature of faith in Him?

I would want my children to know "what" and more importanly "Who and/or Whom" they were being immersed into. Obviously you skeptics are correct that no one can be forced into Christ.

Paedo-baptism is more a dedication "to" the Lord.

Baptising in the Name of the Father and the Son . . . is also an indication that other beliefs do validate the connection "between" Christians that are definately of far more importance. But what about the death bed conversion or the soldier coming to faith in Christ and is cut down before ritual immersion?

Those who have the Son have the Father.

May God help those that do not believe that "In Jesus" dwells God in bodily form. Because . . .

"No one can snatch them from My hand."

Such assurances from Christ the Lord settles many more important issues.

[McCulloch]

Paedo-baptism is more a dedication "to" the Lord.

Is this definition biblical or extra-biblical?

Baptising in the Name of the Father and the Son . . . is also an indication that other beliefs do validate the connection "between" Christians that are definately of far more importance. But what about the death bed conversion or the soldier coming to faith in Christ and is cut down before ritual immersion?

I really did not mean to get into any alleged connection to baptism and salvation. There are paedobaptists who teach that the rite washes away original sin and there are paedobaptists who teach that baptism is simply a dedication. There are those who practice believers' baptism who teach that salvation is not dependant on baptism and yet there are those who practice believers' baptism who link the rite to salvation.
So, from where I sit, your particular view about the appropriate subject for baptism is not linked to any alleged link to salvation or forgiveness.

Those who have the Son have the Father.
May God help those that do not believe that "In Jesus" dwells God in bodily form. Because . . .
"No one can snatch them from My hand."
Such assurances from Christ the Lord settles many more important issues.

Yes, those are more important issues. My question is much more mundane. Is paedobaptism biblically justified?

[McCulloch]

Good question. I think it centers around an individual's view of Baptism more than anything. The point being what does Baptism do? Some groups contend that the baptism of water is necessary for salvation. If that is their perspective than the way in which the Baptism is carried out is significant. Within this split one group could be saying that salvation is administered to infants through another person. There is no example of anyone in scripture being baptized other than by choice from my reading. But to me that doesn't make people bad for wanting to baptize their babies. I see them as wanting them to know and love the Lord like they do, in essence. These people are probably not using the literal word for their justification anyway. I would disagree with the effectiveness of infant baptism, but I would never imply an evil intent behind it on behalf of the parents. Then again I would probably also disagree with some Baptists who held to the view that water Baptism is a part of salvation.

Certainly if you believe in the kind of religion where adherence to outward form can have an effect on your eternal salvation, the question takes on greater significance. But, if you are of the majority of Christians (at least the ones I've talked to) who believe that God saves according to the faith of the believer, then the question has less significance.
I cannot attribute any evil intent to those parents who present their children for baptism. But if they do so, believing that it is biblically proscribed or allowed, I would be interested in their justification. And if it is not biblically justified, then why shouldn't the Christian paedobaptists give up that practice, if only to reduce this one example of the appearance of divisiveness in the Christian community?

[palmera]

"Is the baptism of babies and children justified?"

While theologically speaking, the issue is murky at best, functionally speaking, these baptisms serve to welcome a child into a particular Christian community- it's a right of passage of sorts. Such rituals are pan human and found in great variety. Using baptism as a ritual basis of this sort suits Christian communities. The question then becomes one of, 'when do we want a child officially brought into the community?'

[trencacloscas]

But why most Christians are against abortion then? If the foetus die inside the womb without being baptized, isn't its "soul" compromised? Why wait for the birth for baptizing?

[1John2_26]

1John2_26 wrote:
Paedo-baptism is more a dedication "to" the Lord.
Is this definition biblical or extra-biblical?

1John2_26 wrote:
Baptising in the Name of the Father and the Son . . . is also an indication that other beliefs do validate the connection "between" Christians that are definately of far more importance. But what about the death bed conversion or the soldier coming to faith in Christ and is cut down before ritual immersion?

I really did not mean to get into any alleged connection to baptism and salvation. There are paedobaptists who teach that the rite washes away original sin and there are paedobaptists who teach that baptism is simply a dedication.

The latter being the one I view as Biblically sound.

There are those who practice believers' baptism who teach that salvation is not dependant on baptism and yet there are those who practice believers' baptism who link the rite to salvation.

The latter would be in the wrong. Biblically.

So, from where I sit, your particular view about the appropriate subject for baptism is not linked to any alleged link to salvation or forgiveness.

I like it when you are less vitriolic and more substantial. "My" particualr view is the one from the New Testament. That is why I hold it. Nothing added or taken away.

1John2_26 wrote:
Those who have the Son have the Father.
May God help those that do not believe that "In Jesus" dwells God in bodily form. Because . . .
"No one can snatch them from My hand."
Such assurances from Christ the Lord settles many more important issues.
Yes, those are more important issues. My question is much more mundane. Is paedobaptism biblically justified?

I don't believe it is. But I'm open to some education on this subject though.

[ST88]

While theologically speaking, the issue is murky at best, functionally speaking, these baptisms serve to welcome a child into a particular Christian community- it's a right of passage of sorts. Such rituals are pan human and found in great variety. Using baptism as a ritual basis of this sort suits Christian communities. The question then becomes one of, 'when do we want a child officially brought into the community?'

This bring up two questions:
1) Does an individual who was baptised as an infant require another baptism when s/he reaches an age of reason (i.e., when s/he can profess a positive belief)?
2) Should/Do Christian churches accept the baptisms of other denominations?