Remove 'in god we trust'

[Richard81]

Having God on our currency and in our Pledge of Allegiance fuels the false belief that the United States is a Christian nation. As declared in the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, "...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This was signed by president John Adams. Having God in our currency and in our Pledge of Allegiance directly disrespects those among us who are not of the Christian faith, and it should be removed.

I took that from this site https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... e/sx9gbfgW
It is a petition to remove 'God' from our currency and pledge of allegiance. Do you agree that this should be done? Why or why not? If you do, please sign this petition.

[East of Eden]

It is my position that stopping school prayer is prohibiting religion, which you said is not allowed.

There is no prohibition against "school prayer". There is a prohibition against prayer in government schools.

So why is it OK to pray in the government military, Congress and Supreme Court?

[JohnPaul]

It is my position that stopping school prayer is prohibiting religion, which you said is not allowed.

There is no prohibition against "school prayer". There is a prohibition against prayer in government schools. Catholic schools are not prohibited from conducting prayers in the classroom. Nor are any other religious schools prohibited from doing so. What is specifically prohibited is the government doing so. How can this possibly amount to "prohibiting religion"?

I can just imagine an atheist teacher being ordered by the school Principal to conduct a prayer session in his/her classroom. If I were such a teacher, I would not bother with any watered-down, wishy-washy non-sectarian prayer. I would offer not only prayer, but chants, hallelujahs, incantations, incense, holy-rolling, snake-handling, speaking-in tongues, the whole shebang. In the name of diversity, perhaps black candles, pentagrams, invocation of demons. And certainly burn the Principal at the stake at a school assembly as an example of a Christian ritual.

[East of Eden]

It is my position that stopping school prayer is prohibiting religion, which you said is not allowed.

There is no prohibition against "school prayer". There is a prohibition against prayer in government schools. Catholic schools are not prohibited from conducting prayers in the classroom. Nor are any other religious schools prohibited from doing so. What is specifically prohibited is the government doing so. How can this possibly amount to "prohibiting religion"?

I can just imagine an atheist teacher being ordered by the school Principal to conduct a prayer session in his/her classroom. If I were such a teacher, I would not bother with any watered-down, wishy-washy non-sectarian prayer. I would offer not only prayer, but chants, hallelujahs, incantations, incense, holy-rolling, snake-handling, speaking-in tongues, the whole shebang. In the name of diversity, perhaps black candles, pentagrams, invocation of demons. And certainly burn the Principal at the stake at a school assembly as an example of a Christian ritual.

Wow, that's dramatic. Schools in England have an act of worship daily, whatever the teacher's beliefs, and I don't see those things happening.

[East of Eden]

It is my position that stopping school prayer is prohibiting religion, which you said is not allowed.

This is only true if individuals are prevented from praying. They are not, so you are wrong. QED.

No I'm not, I'm referring of course to the 1962 SCOTUS decision.

[SailingCyclops]

Because Jesus said to submit to Caesar does not mean He approves of all Caesar does.

No, but the admonishment is clearly to obey civil law. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". Fighting against civil authority, like in the case of the American Revolution, would be a non christian act.

I've already said I would not have participated in that fight. Do you have a point?

Only to agree with McCulloch's statement about the central ideas of christianity, including no opposition to civil government, which includes no opposition to taxation without representation.

[East of Eden]

My beliefs and what people in a given district want are two different things.

If your beliefs are not at issue, why did you mention them in the first place?

Because somebody here brought up my beliefs.

In fact I'm not opposed to Bible-as-textbook in principle. Unfortunately, as a recent study in Texas showed, teachers tend to turn Bible history classes into sermons.

Easy fix, stop the abuses. Besides, teachers serominze all the time, do you know what does on in our public university classrooms with leftist bias?

Because what schools really need are easier ways for students to ostracize the outsiders.

Yes, I notice with no organized school prayer the ostracism is gone. /Sarcasm off. Kids will do that to anybody, including for being a committed Christian, about the most counter-cultural thing you can be in our society.

It's the privilege that comes with knowing you're in the majority

I AM in the majority, if you count those calling themselves Christians.

and that policies like school prayer are likely to benefit your interests disproportionately.

I see, so that's why you want prayer out of schools?

Would you be terribly offended if I expressed skepticism that a site called Militant Islam Monitor, which reprints WorldNet Daily articles, is representing the facts accurately?

Rather than an ad hominem, go ahead and tell me which facts on the site are wrong.

It is an odd quirk. Figurehead state church aside, those nations are extremely secular in their governance and report high levels of individual atheism.

School prayer was somewhat of a symbolic thing, they weren't exactly burning unbelieving school children at the stake, were they?

Somewhat different from your totalitarian fear-mongering.

I don't think Alexander Solzhenitzyn and the millions of others sent to the Gulag would have called it fear-mongering.

[East of Eden]

Because Jesus said to submit to Caesar does not mean He approves of all Caesar does.

No, but the admonishment is clearly to obey civil law. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". Fighting against civil authority, like in the case of the American Revolution, would be a non christian act.

I've already said I would not have participated in that fight. Do you have a point?

Only to agree with McCulloch's statement about the central ideas of christianity, including no opposition to civil government, which includes no opposition to taxation without representation.

That is hardly a central idea of Christianity, especially when we see NT examples of Apostles ignoring the government when Caesar took what was God's. The quote was 'Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's'. When a government ordered Christians to worship the emporer or to stop worshipping Jesus Christ, they were taking what was God's. And you could argue that Christian governments in the past that forced everyone to act as Christians were taking what was Caesar's. They weren't doing that because of Jesus' teachings. That saying of Jesus is what allows we Christians to have separation of church and state, something you won't find in Islam. Note also Jesus constantly rebuffed efforts by followers to make Him an earthly ruler, another clear contrast with Islam.

BTW,'christianity' is normally capitalized, I know you're not that petty.

[PhiloKGB]

This is only true if individuals are prevented from praying. They are not, so you are wrong. QED.

No I'm not, I'm referring of course to the 1962 SCOTUS decision.

You mean Engel v. Vitale? The one that specifically recognized an individual right to pray in school but prohibited school-sponsored and -encouraged prayer? What part about 'individuals are not prohibited from praying' do you not understand?

[PhiloKGB]

Because somebody here brought up my beliefs.

Hardly. In post 68, SailingCyclops listed a number of Supreme Court decisions which dealt with religious expression in schools. You, in a remarkable display of naked contempt for any argument which poses difficulties for your theocratic leanings and with a liberal dose of well-poisoning, handwaved them all as "made-up rulings by activist judges" in post 69.

SC pointed out that, however you feel about them, they represent the state of constitutional law. That's when you said you wouldn't "obey any law that forces me to violate my religious beliefs" in post 72.

Easy fix, stop the abuses.

It won't be possible as long as administrators and school boards let their Christian privilege color their decisions.

Besides, teachers serominze all the time, do you know what does on in our public university classrooms with leftist bias?

Yes, I've had lots of college courses. I even remember an openly socialist sociology professor sermonizing about the government's role in job creation. I remember him because it was so unlike the rest of my professors who didn't sermonize.

Yes, I notice with no organized school prayer the ostracism is gone. /Sarcasm off.

So we should make sure that they've got real differences upon which to discriminate?

Kids will do that to anybody, including for being a committed Christian, about the most counter-cultural thing you can be in our society.

It's like you don't even know that there's all this America below the Mason-Dixon line.

I AM in the majority, if you count those calling themselves Christians.

I know. And you're upset about losing the privilege you've had for decades.

and that policies like school prayer are likely to benefit your interests disproportionately.

I see, so that's why you want prayer out of schools?

Well, yes. It's unconstitutional for you to have your religion promoted above all others.

Would you be terribly offended if I expressed skepticism that a site called Militant Islam Monitor, which reprints WorldNet Daily articles, is representing the facts accurately?

Rather than an ad hominem, go ahead and tell me which facts on the site are wrong.

Oh, I'll get around to it eventually.

It is an odd quirk. Figurehead state church aside, those nations are extremely secular in their governance and report high levels of individual atheism.

School prayer was somewhat of a symbolic thing, they weren't exactly burning unbelieving school children at the stake, were they?

A symbol for what? No, it wasn't all that big a deal because Tradition and Christian Privilege.

Somewhat different from your totalitarian fear-mongering.

I don't think Alexander Solzhenitzyn and the millions of others sent to the Gulag would have called it fear-mongering.

I rest my case.

[East of Eden]

This is only true if individuals are prevented from praying. They are not, so you are wrong. QED.

No I'm not, I'm referring of course to the 1962 SCOTUS decision.

You mean Engel v. Vitale? The one that specifically recognized an individual right to pray in school but prohibited school-sponsored and -encouraged prayer? What part about 'individuals are not prohibited from praying' do you not understand?

Nobody is talking about that, I'm talking about the right to collective prayer for school districts who want to being taken away.