Using logic and reason to oppose abortion...

[questioner4]

Okay, even though I've been questioning my faith for over a year, I am still firmly pro-life - although I believe 'traditional' pro-lifers go about it the wrong way. I believe thast abortion is wrong, because I oppose discrimination on all grounds. I believe it is being discriminatory to deny basic human rights to the smallest humans, simply because they are still dependant on the mother. It really would be nice to hear people oppose abortion on grounds other than the Bible.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are you a 'non-traditional pro-lifer'? If you are Christian and pro-life, can you think of any non-Biblical reasons to oppose abortion?

[McCulloch]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

Sorry, there is no law that says that they have to be informed. It's not the job of the doctor, it's the job of the woman getting the abortion, if she so chooses.

I think that jcrawford is arguing that there should be such a law. He seems to believe that male persons of specific faiths should have legal rights over their sexual partners' bodies because they have impregnated them.

[jcrawford]

Not only can society grant abortion rights, they *DID*!

Yes, but society can't grant medical doctors the right to abort the unborn children of married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men without their mutual consent any more than it can grant Christian, Jewish and Muslim men or women the right to commit adultery.

Then tell your Christian, Jewish and Muslim pregnant women not to get abortions. Nobody is scooping them up off the street and forcing it on them, they're the ones making the appointments and paying to have the procedure done.
Or maybe you didn't think of that?

Yes, I have thought about it and find that most employee health plans cover pregnancy termination, so the wives who are covered under the employee health plans of Christian, Jewish and Muslim working men don't have to pay a plug nickel to have some medical monsters kill their husband's unborn children before he is even informed that his wife is pregnant.

[jcrawford]

I am not quite clear on what you are asking for. You seem to be asking that men who believe in specific religions be granted certain rights with regard to certain pregnancies.

I'm not really asking for anything. Rather am I demanding that the rights of married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men be recognized and restored to married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men. Until they are, we will lawfully deny so-called secular rights to make any law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

[McCulloch]

I am not quite clear on what you are asking for. You seem to be asking that men who believe in specific religions be granted certain rights with regard to certain pregnancies.

I'm not really asking for anything. Rather am I demanding that the rights of married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men be recognized and restored to married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men. Until they are, we will lawfully deny so-called secular rights to make any law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Please be specific. Which rights are you demanding? I would like to debate you but I cannot until I understand what your demands are.

[jcrawford]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

Sorry, there is no law that says that they have to be informed. It's not the job of the doctor, it's the job of the woman getting the abortion, if she so chooses.

I think that jcrawford is arguing that there should be such a law. He seems to believe that male persons of specific faiths should have legal rights over their sexual partners' bodies because they have impregnated them.

That's putting it rather crudely in a secular fashion. I'm arguing from the POV of the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the Amercan Constitution which states that our Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.

Since Christian, Jewish and Islamic marriages constitute the establishment of religious institutions, Christian, Jewish and Muslim men have the right to deny secular medical practitioners the right to kill our unborn children. If married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men want the unborn children of their marriages slaughtered, then they have the right to choose any medical doctor they please. On the other hand, no secular medical doctor of any faith has the right to adultery or abortion with their Christian, Jewish or Islamic spouse without their written consent though.

Christian, Jewish and Islamic men form a powerful political constituency in America and secular athiests don't have have the right to advocate the medical killing of any body.

If you advocate the killing of the unborn children of married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men, what moral defense can you muster against the religious edict and legal judgement of an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, or for the life of anyone who kills Christian, Jewish and Islamic babies in their mother's wombs without their Father's consent?

[jcrawford]

If you would answer these three questions, it would help me to understand your position better.

1. What rights? Are you asking that the fathers be simply informed, prior to the abortion? Or are you asking that the fathers approval be obtained prior to the abortion?

We demand that Christian, Jewish and Islamic Fathers be informed either before the unwanted bloody abortion takes place on their wives or daughters or after the bloody abortionists have commited their adulterous or pedophile crime. If the bloody abortionists won't inform us on their own, we demand that the government notify us either before or after our Christian, Jewish or Islamic wives and daughters are scheduled to be given abortions against our will.

[jcrawford]

I am not quite clear on what you are asking for. You seem to be asking that men who believe in specific religions be granted certain rights with regard to certain pregnancies.

I'm not really asking for anything. Rather am I demanding that the rights of married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men be recognized and restored to married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men. Until they are, we will lawfully deny so-called secular rights to make any law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Please be specific. Which rights are you demanding? I would like to debate you but I cannot until I understand what your demands are.

Patience, McColloch, is a virtue belonging only to saints.

[jcrawford]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

I am not quite clear on what you are asking for. You seem to be asking that men who believe in specific religions be granted certain rights with regard to certain pregnancies.
If you would answer these three questions, it would help me to understand your position better.

1. What rights? Are you asking that the fathers be simply informed, prior to the abortion? Or are you asking that the fathers approval be obtained prior to the abortion?

First question answered in previous reply.

[*]Which pregnancies? Obviously you wish to include the pregnancies which are the result of sex within marriage. What about other pregnancies where a person of the specific named religions is the father?

That's a good question. Obviously, the best reply would be that the identity of the father in question must be obtained by medical doctors before any woman is granted either the secular or religious right to unilaterally kill the offspring of that Father.

Where the pregnancy is the result of adultery, rape, incest or unmarried sex and the father is a Christian, Jew or Muslim, do you believe that the father should have the rights you describe?

Of course not. Adultery, rape, incest and unmarried sex are Christian, Jewish and Islamic crimes.

What about if the wife of a Christian, Jew or Muslim gets pregnant and the father is not a Christian, Jew or Muslim?

If the identity of the irreligious or anti-religious father is known, then that criminal is forever indebted to pay for his crimes to the Christian, Jewish or Islamic marriage which he has criminally violated.

Should these rights be extended to a Christian, Jewish or Islamic father when the mother is not of those faiths?

If women choose to marry Chistian, Jewish or Muslim men, they should be prepared to stay married and live under the jurisdiction of their husband's religion, for better or worse. Same goes for Christian, Jewish and Islamic men. If they marry outside of their religion, they must be prepared to live under the domination of their wive's religion or secular philosophy, no?

[jcrawford]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

I am not quite clear on what you are asking for. You seem to be asking that men who believe in specific religions be granted certain rights with regard to certain pregnancies.
If you would answer these three questions, it would help me to understand your position better.

Which faiths?[/b] Are you implying that the three specific religions be treated differently under law?

All godly religions should be treated equally under law.

What about Sikhs? Baha'i? Heck, why don't you argue that atheist fathers should have the same rights?[/list]

I do. Why don't you? All married men and women have equal rights regarding the birth of their children. At least in America, they are supposed to, by law. I don't know about Canada, though. Maybe there is some hope for you up there, with your new conservative leader. The Liberals deserve to have been politically aborted. Same thing is happening in America. Liberal abortionists are getting aborted. What right do abortionists have to live, anyway?

[Wyvern]

I'm not really asking for anything. Rather am I demanding that the rights of married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men be recognized and restored to married Christian, Jewish and Muslim men. Until they are, we will lawfully deny so-called secular rights to make any law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

I think jcrawford that you are claiming solidarity with groups where none exists. As far as these groups denying the society at large to make any law regarding the establishment of religion, in america at least that is prohibited.