The Demands of Occupy Wall Street

[WinePusher]

People at occupy wall street have released unofficial lists of demands here and there. There are apparently many out there and they don't seem to correspond to eachtother, but here's one unofficial list of demands:

-Demand 1: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending “Freetrade� by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
-Demand 2: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
-Demand 3: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
-Demand 4: Free college education.
-Demand 5: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
-Demand 6: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
-Demand 7: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.
-Demand 8: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
-Demand 9: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
-Demand 10: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
-Demand 11: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the “Books.� World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the “Books.� And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
-Demand 12: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
-Demand 13: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

http://toddkinsey.com/blog/2011/10/08/o ... f-demands/

1) What do you make of these demands? Are they reasonable or unreasonable?
2) In a list of demands seperate from this list, OWS protestors have expressed disapproval towards the ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commision. Do you agree or disagree with the ruling?
3) Although absent from the list of demands, OWS have expressed disdainment towards what they percieve to be a growing gap between the top 1% of society and the remaining 99% of society. What is the truth regarding wealth and income inequality?

[chris_brown207]

There is a big difference between isolationist...and resisting invasion....and frankly, that's what is happening. If all those illegal immigrants were banded together and put in uniform, nobody would argue that it was an invasion.

Consider:
in·va·sion/inˈv�ZHən/
Noun:

An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
An incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.

I would call what's happening here an official invasion. We have huge numbers of people...more per year than many nations have in their armed services...coming across our borders against our will, against our interests, and for their own gain. Once here, they form groups that insist that they be treated better than the folks who are here legally.

WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OUR BORDERS. That's not isolationism. We are quite happy to let in those who come here legally, and frankly, I'm tired unto weeping with the world demanding that the USA either solve their problems, or blaming us for their problems, or sending us their problems, or all three at once.

As well, given today's technology, the isolationism you fear simply isn't possible. Can't happen.

Wish we could have a little of it, though.

Your invasion analogy would be true, except for one vital detail - they are not hear storming our borders by force. Rather they are here by our invitation. Every day that we open our pocket books, every time we visit the grocers, every purchase that we make that was subsidized by immigrant labor we are consciously voting to support the presence of illegal immigration. The only difference is we are not as overt about the invitation as we were right after and during WWII when we publicly invited them across open borders to fill the wholes in labor left by departing soldiers. This was around the time my mother's family walked across - there were no checkpoints, no fences.

Immigrants are here at our bequest. They fill the supply to the demand that we create. The fact that they are here, we have no one to blame but ourselves. And building more fences and walls to stop it without dealing with the demand will do nothing but waste tax payer dollars, and create a false sense of security.

One thing the American people have consistently shown is a willingness to circumvent rules and regulations in the name of expediency. We shouldn't be looking to "defend our borders" from foreign "invaders", we should be looking to defend ourselves against our own destructive and placebo policies.

After all, just like the drug war, for every billion dollar wall we build (rhetorical or actual) it will be circumvented by a million dollar tunnel (a weeks worth of pay to the cartels that build them). http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/san-diego ... d=14966758 (And this was just the latest example. I was actually looking for a story I saw earlier this year about another tunnel.)

And every wall we build, we begin to look more and more like that East Germany nation of years past.

[JohnPaul]

No. it is 'demonizing' only the population that is actually causing the problem; ILLEGAL immigrants.

And don't tell me that illegal immigrants aren't bankrupting the states in which they live, because they are. Californis, for instance, would not be IN debt at all if the illegal immigrants who are using services they don't pay for would go home.

I am not arguing that illegal immigrants aren't a burden on the system... but they didn't just appear by magic. They are hear because we created the environment ripe for them to be here. We are all supporting illegal immigration. Unless you are buying locally, from farmers whom you have verified are using only local labor... then guess what - you support illegal immigration.

Why are the rights of those who are born in the USA, or are here legally, or who have achieved citizenship through legal means, so much less than the 'rights' of those who are breaking our laws simply by being here?

You are asking the wrong person. I am am not supporting the rights of illegal immigration over US citizens. All I am saying is that it is very two faced of us to on the one hand enjoy the fruits of the labor, and on the other hand poo-poo them being here illegally. And it is disconcerting to see all this wasted emphasis on a matter which is just a symptom of the overall problem... the declining competitiveness of American labor on a global scale.

You tell use about your mother's people, who are waiting to come here legally.

Has it occurred to you, as it has to those who have actually made it here legally, that the illegals are the people making it impossible for those who want to come legally to do so in any sort of timely manner?

Illegal aliens are, at the very least, 'cutters in line.'

Agreed. And when those "cutters in line" are continually seeing the benefits of their policies from all of us Americans, who could blame others from wanting to do the same. At some point, we have all been in a similar situation where a guy walks up and forms his own line. And it pisses the rest of us off that had been waiting patiently. However, when more and more people start joining him - then at some point he is no longer a "cutter", he is just a guy standing at the front of a freshly authenticated line.

As to agricultural workers, give me a break. When I was young I lived in Idaho. During the summer all the high school kids worked in the fields. When we started school, we went for about three weeks, and then we took three weeks OFF in order to handle the potato and other harvests. Teenagers. you know, the "Americans who won't do the job?"

My mother did this every summer from the time she was fourteen. She earned enough money to buy her school supplies and clothes, as well as spending money for 'fun.' She worked hard. So did my father. So did I.

............and those farmers at the time didn't have a single illegal immigrant doing those jobs.

People find a way. Cut the illegals off; that will leave room for your mother's folks to come in.

I don't know when you were a teenager living in Idaho, but I am talking about the Idaho of today. I drive by many of those farms on my way to work every day. I buy produce locally, every summer. And I see firsthand the fact that immigrant labor heavily outweigh citizen labor (even during summer time when kids are off school). It is not high school kids I see out in the fields picking crops - it is immigrants. I drive by the local meat plants... and guess who I see filling the cars at the end of the work day? I drive by cheese plants, and the same thing goes.

I can fully believe that the Idaho of yesteryear was full of citizen labor out happily fulfilling their fair share. However, that picture does not contrast with the reality of today.

And cut the labor off (which is what Alabama did) and the US will be faced with one of two things - the vastly increased cost of produce across the board (at a critical economic time) or make way for more and more cheaper foreign produce (and the failing of more US farmers). Or we can just do as East Of Eden recommends, and create a welfare state for farmers, above and beyond what we already do. Not exactly the American way - but heck, we have all looked the other way all this time, why not just expand upon it.

The labor problem is not the only problem, and it is not just today. 35 or so years ago, I worked on the Data Processing staff of a county in central California. Since election results were processed by computer (very primitive then, using punched cards), I was present at a meeting of county officials and employees to discuss procedures to handle the coming election. It was well-known that many of the farm workers in the area were illegals and not qualified to vote. A suggestion was made that a simple ID check of voters could be made to help separate out some of the illegals. This was immediately rejected by county officials as impossible and forbidden by law.

I personally watched as truckloads of Spanish-speaking farm workers were driven up to the polling places and lined up to vote by Spanish-speaking foremen. We knew that most of them were illegals, but there was nothing we could do about it.

John

[East of Eden]

No. it is 'demonizing' only the population that is actually causing the problem; ILLEGAL immigrants.

And don't tell me that illegal immigrants aren't bankrupting the states in which they live, because they are. Californis, for instance, would not be IN debt at all if the illegal immigrants who are using services they don't pay for would go home.

I am not arguing that illegal immigrants aren't a burden on the system... but they didn't just appear by magic. They are hear because we created the environment ripe for them to be here. We are all supporting illegal immigration. Unless you are buying locally, from farmers whom you have verified are using only local labor... then guess what - you support illegal immigration.

Why are the rights of those who are born in the USA, or are here legally, or who have achieved citizenship through legal means, so much less than the 'rights' of those who are breaking our laws simply by being here?

You are asking the wrong person. I am am not supporting the rights of illegal immigration over US citizens. All I am saying is that it is very two faced of us to on the one hand enjoy the fruits of the labor, and on the other hand poo-poo them being here illegally. And it is disconcerting to see all this wasted emphasis on a matter which is just a symptom of the overall problem... the declining competitiveness of American labor on a global scale.

You tell use about your mother's people, who are waiting to come here legally.

Has it occurred to you, as it has to those who have actually made it here legally, that the illegals are the people making it impossible for those who want to come legally to do so in any sort of timely manner?

Illegal aliens are, at the very least, 'cutters in line.'

Agreed. And when those "cutters in line" are continually seeing the benefits of their policies from all of us Americans, who could blame others from wanting to do the same. At some point, we have all been in a similar situation where a guy walks up and forms his own line. And it pisses the rest of us off that had been waiting patiently. However, when more and more people start joining him - then at some point he is no longer a "cutter", he is just a guy standing at the front of a freshly authenticated line.

As to agricultural workers, give me a break. When I was young I lived in Idaho. During the summer all the high school kids worked in the fields. When we started school, we went for about three weeks, and then we took three weeks OFF in order to handle the potato and other harvests. Teenagers. you know, the "Americans who won't do the job?"

My mother did this every summer from the time she was fourteen. She earned enough money to buy her school supplies and clothes, as well as spending money for 'fun.' She worked hard. So did my father. So did I.

............and those farmers at the time didn't have a single illegal immigrant doing those jobs.

People find a way. Cut the illegals off; that will leave room for your mother's folks to come in.

I don't know when you were a teenager living in Idaho, but I am talking about the Idaho of today. I drive by many of those farms on my way to work every day. I buy produce locally, every summer. And I see firsthand the fact that immigrant labor heavily outweigh citizen labor (even during summer time when kids are off school). It is not high school kids I see out in the fields picking crops - it is immigrants. I drive by the local meat plants... and guess who I see filling the cars at the end of the work day? I drive by cheese plants, and the same thing goes.

I can fully believe that the Idaho of yesteryear was full of citizen labor out happily fulfilling their fair share. However, that picture does not contrast with the reality of today.

And cut the labor off (which is what Alabama did) and the US will be faced with one of two things - the vastly increased cost of produce across the board (at a critical economic time) or make way for more and more cheaper foreign produce (and the failing of more US farmers). Or we can just do as East Of Eden recommends, and create a welfare state for farmers, above and beyond what we already do. Not exactly the American way - but heck, we have all looked the other way all this time, why not just expand upon it.

The labor problem is not the only problem, and it is not just today. 35 or so years ago, I worked on the Data Processing staff of a county in central California. Since election results were processed by computer (very primitive then, using punched cards), I was present at a meeting of county officials and employees to discuss procedures to handle the coming election. It was well-known that many of the farm workers in the area were illegals and not qualified to vote. A suggestion was made that a simple ID check of voters could be made to help separate out some of the illegals. This was immediately rejected by county officials as impossible and forbidden by law.

I personally watched as truckloads of Spanish-speaking farm workers were driven up to the polling places and lined up to vote by Spanish-speaking foremen. We knew that most of them were illegals, but there was nothing we could do about it.

John

True, and sickening. This is what our vets fought and died for? There is whole political class that wants these illegals in, despite their detrimental effects, and despite the president's oath to protect and defend the US. This is treason. I am not only referring to Obama, but to Rick Perry who supports giving illegals a nearly six figure education subsidy, when it is illegal for employees to hire them
when they do graduate.

It is not our problem to fix Mexico's problems. Perhaps if they stop the corruption and de-socialize they would be farther ahead.

[chris_brown207]

No. it is 'demonizing' only the population that is actually causing the problem; ILLEGAL immigrants.

And don't tell me that illegal immigrants aren't bankrupting the states in which they live, because they are. Californis, for instance, would not be IN debt at all if the illegal immigrants who are using services they don't pay for would go home.

I am not arguing that illegal immigrants aren't a burden on the system... but they didn't just appear by magic. They are hear because we created the environment ripe for them to be here. We are all supporting illegal immigration. Unless you are buying locally, from farmers whom you have verified are using only local labor... then guess what - you support illegal immigration.

Why are the rights of those who are born in the USA, or are here legally, or who have achieved citizenship through legal means, so much less than the 'rights' of those who are breaking our laws simply by being here?

You are asking the wrong person. I am am not supporting the rights of illegal immigration over US citizens. All I am saying is that it is very two faced of us to on the one hand enjoy the fruits of the labor, and on the other hand poo-poo them being here illegally. And it is disconcerting to see all this wasted emphasis on a matter which is just a symptom of the overall problem... the declining competitiveness of American labor on a global scale.

You tell use about your mother's people, who are waiting to come here legally.

Has it occurred to you, as it has to those who have actually made it here legally, that the illegals are the people making it impossible for those who want to come legally to do so in any sort of timely manner?

Illegal aliens are, at the very least, 'cutters in line.'

Agreed. And when those "cutters in line" are continually seeing the benefits of their policies from all of us Americans, who could blame others from wanting to do the same. At some point, we have all been in a similar situation where a guy walks up and forms his own line. And it pisses the rest of us off that had been waiting patiently. However, when more and more people start joining him - then at some point he is no longer a "cutter", he is just a guy standing at the front of a freshly authenticated line.

As to agricultural workers, give me a break. When I was young I lived in Idaho. During the summer all the high school kids worked in the fields. When we started school, we went for about three weeks, and then we took three weeks OFF in order to handle the potato and other harvests. Teenagers. you know, the "Americans who won't do the job?"

My mother did this every summer from the time she was fourteen. She earned enough money to buy her school supplies and clothes, as well as spending money for 'fun.' She worked hard. So did my father. So did I.

............and those farmers at the time didn't have a single illegal immigrant doing those jobs.

People find a way. Cut the illegals off; that will leave room for your mother's folks to come in.

I don't know when you were a teenager living in Idaho, but I am talking about the Idaho of today. I drive by many of those farms on my way to work every day. I buy produce locally, every summer. And I see firsthand the fact that immigrant labor heavily outweigh citizen labor (even during summer time when kids are off school). It is not high school kids I see out in the fields picking crops - it is immigrants. I drive by the local meat plants... and guess who I see filling the cars at the end of the work day? I drive by cheese plants, and the same thing goes.

I can fully believe that the Idaho of yesteryear was full of citizen labor out happily fulfilling their fair share. However, that picture does not contrast with the reality of today.

And cut the labor off (which is what Alabama did) and the US will be faced with one of two things - the vastly increased cost of produce across the board (at a critical economic time) or make way for more and more cheaper foreign produce (and the failing of more US farmers). Or we can just do as East Of Eden recommends, and create a welfare state for farmers, above and beyond what we already do. Not exactly the American way - but heck, we have all looked the other way all this time, why not just expand upon it.

The labor problem is not the only problem, and it is not just today. 35 or so years ago, I worked on the Data Processing staff of a county in central California. Since election results were processed by computer (very primitive then, using punched cards), I was present at a meeting of county officials and employees to discuss procedures to handle the coming election. It was well-known that many of the farm workers in the area were illegals and not qualified to vote. A suggestion was made that a simple ID check of voters could be made to help separate out some of the illegals. This was immediately rejected by county officials as impossible and forbidden by law.

I personally watched as truckloads of Spanish-speaking farm workers were driven up to the polling places and lined up to vote by Spanish-speaking foremen. We knew that most of them were illegals, but there was nothing we could do about it.

John

Surprise, surprise... the people we invite into our homes, allow them to work and live (behind a closed curtain perhaps) decide to make themselves feel at home, and comfortable.

Again, they wouldn't be here if they weren't invited (whether overtly, or behind closed doors). Check where your meat is getting processed every now and then. Check where your fruit is getting picked. Take a peek behind the curtains, and see who is really doing the work.

All this immigration rhetoric is all well and good, and may make us feel better by standing on the soap box. But the truth is all of our hands are dirty. We all write the checks that ensure that immigrant labor is and will continue to become ensconced in our society.

[East of Eden]

No. it is 'demonizing' only the population that is actually causing the problem; ILLEGAL immigrants.

And don't tell me that illegal immigrants aren't bankrupting the states in which they live, because they are. Californis, for instance, would not be IN debt at all if the illegal immigrants who are using services they don't pay for would go home.

I am not arguing that illegal immigrants aren't a burden on the system... but they didn't just appear by magic. They are hear because we created the environment ripe for them to be here. We are all supporting illegal immigration. Unless you are buying locally, from farmers whom you have verified are using only local labor... then guess what - you support illegal immigration.

Why are the rights of those who are born in the USA, or are here legally, or who have achieved citizenship through legal means, so much less than the 'rights' of those who are breaking our laws simply by being here?

You are asking the wrong person. I am am not supporting the rights of illegal immigration over US citizens. All I am saying is that it is very two faced of us to on the one hand enjoy the fruits of the labor, and on the other hand poo-poo them being here illegally. And it is disconcerting to see all this wasted emphasis on a matter which is just a symptom of the overall problem... the declining competitiveness of American labor on a global scale.

You tell use about your mother's people, who are waiting to come here legally.

Has it occurred to you, as it has to those who have actually made it here legally, that the illegals are the people making it impossible for those who want to come legally to do so in any sort of timely manner?

Illegal aliens are, at the very least, 'cutters in line.'

Agreed. And when those "cutters in line" are continually seeing the benefits of their policies from all of us Americans, who could blame others from wanting to do the same. At some point, we have all been in a similar situation where a guy walks up and forms his own line. And it pisses the rest of us off that had been waiting patiently. However, when more and more people start joining him - then at some point he is no longer a "cutter", he is just a guy standing at the front of a freshly authenticated line.

As to agricultural workers, give me a break. When I was young I lived in Idaho. During the summer all the high school kids worked in the fields. When we started school, we went for about three weeks, and then we took three weeks OFF in order to handle the potato and other harvests. Teenagers. you know, the "Americans who won't do the job?"

My mother did this every summer from the time she was fourteen. She earned enough money to buy her school supplies and clothes, as well as spending money for 'fun.' She worked hard. So did my father. So did I.

............and those farmers at the time didn't have a single illegal immigrant doing those jobs.

People find a way. Cut the illegals off; that will leave room for your mother's folks to come in.

I don't know when you were a teenager living in Idaho, but I am talking about the Idaho of today. I drive by many of those farms on my way to work every day. I buy produce locally, every summer. And I see firsthand the fact that immigrant labor heavily outweigh citizen labor (even during summer time when kids are off school). It is not high school kids I see out in the fields picking crops - it is immigrants. I drive by the local meat plants... and guess who I see filling the cars at the end of the work day? I drive by cheese plants, and the same thing goes.

I can fully believe that the Idaho of yesteryear was full of citizen labor out happily fulfilling their fair share. However, that picture does not contrast with the reality of today.

And cut the labor off (which is what Alabama did) and the US will be faced with one of two things - the vastly increased cost of produce across the board (at a critical economic time) or make way for more and more cheaper foreign produce (and the failing of more US farmers). Or we can just do as East Of Eden recommends, and create a welfare state for farmers, above and beyond what we already do. Not exactly the American way - but heck, we have all looked the other way all this time, why not just expand upon it.

The labor problem is not the only problem, and it is not just today. 35 or so years ago, I worked on the Data Processing staff of a county in central California. Since election results were processed by computer (very primitive then, using punched cards), I was present at a meeting of county officials and employees to discuss procedures to handle the coming election. It was well-known that many of the farm workers in the area were illegals and not qualified to vote. A suggestion was made that a simple ID check of voters could be made to help separate out some of the illegals. This was immediately rejected by county officials as impossible and forbidden by law.

I personally watched as truckloads of Spanish-speaking farm workers were driven up to the polling places and lined up to vote by Spanish-speaking foremen. We knew that most of them were illegals, but there was nothing we could do about it.

John

Surprise, surprise... the people we invite into our homes, allow them to work and live (behind a closed curtain perhaps) decide to make themselves feel at home, and comfortable.

Again, they wouldn't be here if they weren't invited (whether overtly, or behind closed doors). Check where your meat is getting processed every now and then. Check where your fruit is getting picked. Take a peek behind the curtains, and see who is really doing the work.

All this immigration rhetoric is all well and good, and may make us feel better by standing on the soap box. But the truth is all of our hands are dirty. We all write the checks that ensure that immigrant labor is and will continue to become ensconced in our society.

Nonsense, we are not inviting them here, that's blaming the victim. We are demanding the government stop the politics and secure the border. We need more of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

[chris_brown207]

Nonsense, we are not inviting them here, that's blaming the victim. We are demanding the government stop the politics and secure the border. We need more of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Of course not, because you buy all your produce locally from farmers whom you have verified outsource their labor to citizens only... A staunch patriot like yourself would never shop at any of the large commercial retailers like Wal-Mart, the majority of who's products are heavily subsidized by immigrant labor.

I am sure your house is 100% filled with certifiable Made In America products.

I look forward to seeing you out in the fields, and in the slaughterhouses then when your wishes are granted.

[dianaiad]

There is a big difference between isolationist...and resisting invasion....and frankly, that's what is happening. If all those illegal immigrants were banded together and put in uniform, nobody would argue that it was an invasion.

Consider:
in·va·sion/inˈv�ZHən/
Noun:

An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
An incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.

I would call what's happening here an official invasion. We have huge numbers of people...more per year than many nations have in their armed services...coming across our borders against our will, against our interests, and for their own gain. Once here, they form groups that insist that they be treated better than the folks who are here legally.

WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OUR BORDERS. That's not isolationism. We are quite happy to let in those who come here legally, and frankly, I'm tired unto weeping with the world demanding that the USA either solve their problems, or blaming us for their problems, or sending us their problems, or all three at once.

As well, given today's technology, the isolationism you fear simply isn't possible. Can't happen.

Wish we could have a little of it, though.

Your invasion analogy would be true, except for one vital detail - they are not hear storming our borders by force. Rather they are here by our invitation.

Not my permission.

Ever heard of the saying 'not in single spies, but in battalions?" THAT is what is happening. How am I supposed to know, when I purchase an orange, that the person who picked it is here illegally?

It's not MY invitation that is being extended.

As well, the fact that these people have to hire coyotes and spend rather hefty amounts of money to get here...the fact that it's not SAFE, that crossing....(though it should be even more dangerous; impossible, actually) there is no invitation.

When a nation is invaded, the fact that they have to deal with the invaders does NOT equal 'invitation to invade."

[chris_brown207]

Not my permission.

You may say so publicly, but as they say - actions speak louder then words. And if in your actions, you are providing financial support to those who profit from illegal immigration - then yes, you are providing permission, as well as the financial reward that encourages them to continue.

Ever heard of the saying 'not in single spies, but in battalions?" THAT is what is happening. How am I supposed to know, when I purchase an orange, that the person who picked it is here illegally?

You are not helpless - you are an American. Our nation was founded on competition, and capitalism. If you were truly interested in buying American only - and removing your financial support from illegal immigration - then you would find a way to do so.

You would shop locally only, from farmers markets that you can verify are manned by citizens only. Other then having the right to vote for our elected leaders, you also have the power of the pocket book - should you choose to use it. If you continue to subscribe to ill gotten gains supporting the industries you publicly decry - then you are part of the problem.

It's not MY invitation that is being extended.

Again not true as long as you continue to vote with your pocket book. That is the one thing that you have absolute control over on a day to day basis.

As well, the fact that these people have to hire coyotes and spend rather hefty amounts of money to get here...the fact that it's not SAFE, that crossing....(though it should be even more dangerous; impossible, actually) there is no invitation.

And yet they keep coming, because we keep extending the opportunities remain - and we all turn a blind eye to how and how much we support their efforts. Focus on what you can control - which is where you spend your money. The immigrants have obviously shown they are willing to scale any obstacle to be here and fill those positions. So focus on what you can control - which is eroding the demand for their services. Do the leg work - take a peek behind the curtains at the production facilities. Support the local farmers who do follow the laws. Stop passing the buck, and blaming our representatives and the illegals, when we are all guilty of aiding and abetting in their illegal ventures.

Think about it, if you knowingly bought stolen property - would you not be complicit in the crime? Ignorance is no longer an excuse - especially seeing the state of our economy. Stop talking and starting doing. It is easy to get on the soap box and blame, the real change occurs when you do something about it.[/quote]

[JoeyKnothead]

We need more Operation Wetback?

I'm not for illegal immigrants and I'm for securing our borders, but danged if even I don't find the naming of such to be insulting beyond all good sense.

Is this now the "Land of the Free, and the home of the 'those of European ancestry who may or may not be some specific color other'n black or brown or red or yellow'"?

[JohnPaul]

We need more Operation Wetback?

I'm not for illegal immigrants and I'm for securing our borders, but danged if even I don't find the naming of such to be insulting beyond all good sense.

Is this now the "Land of the Free, and the home of the 'those of European ancestry who may or may not be some specific color other'n black or brown or red or yellow'"?

Ah, the R-Word has raised its ugly head!

That means all further debate must be silenced and we must accept whatever the liberals want to dump on us!