Obama dispises liberty

[McCulloch]

Obama's election could be punishment for an evil nation.

Or a reward to a nation coming to its senses.

Only if you despise liberty and support socialism.

Does Obama despise liberty and support socialism? Is he one of those Godless communists?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 647:

I guess you discount all the millions of people than that feel it is not torture or if you want to call it torture find it acceptable because no physical harm comes to that person.

Argumentum ad populum, either way. Still, lack of oxygen to the brain, as occurs in waterboarding, can be shown to cause irreperable physical damage to the brain. (This doesn't mention psychological damage, of which I find many a theist willing to allow / ignore - and indicative of the psychological "torture" inflicted to ensure religious belief and adherents.) How much of such we're willing to allow is another issue. I'm personally divided over the issue. Torture if it'll save my son, a US Airman? I'd torture the Pope. Torture in an attempt to inflict distress just because one thinks valuable information may be had? I'm not so sure.

We are not cutting off hands, feet, or a head. We do not rape women like many terrorists do, we dunk their head under the water to give them the feeling of drowning. To me that is not a bad thing.

Are you saying you'd be willing to undergo waterboarding so we can conduct further medical and psychological tests?

"Dunking their head underwater" is, imo, a euphemism, when "preventing one from actually breathing" is the more apt descriptor.

Jesus was non-violent but he would not sit by and let sin go unpunished.

So it's claimed, with scant supporting evidence beyond the booking making the claim. That Jesus would have one's enemies "slain before Me" indicates He could be down with some violence if it suited His goals.

I think putting a convicted murderer to death for his crimes is an acceptable punishment, maybe you do not.

I agree with the punishment, but seek assurances the innocent are not caught up in our zeal.

I am sorry you do not view America as exceptional, I view the US as the greatest country God ever let in the history of the world.

IMO, a country can be both exceptional, and wrong. I propose we find our greatest exceptionalism in seeking to ensure due process and humane treatment of even our worst enemies. God or not.

[East of Eden]

It most certainly is not. Water boarding is torture. Period. There is no matter of opinion. If you bothered to read any of the definitions I presented on what is or is not torture you would be able to grasp this concept.

You call it torture, I call it the first bath these vermin have had in years.

So the ends justify the immoral means... is that the Christian perspective?

That is your contention about immorality, not mine.

All humans deserve due cause.

Does that extend to unborn humans?

Wow... really? First your God committing whole scale world wiping cannot be shown to be true.

That is my belief, I never claimed I could prove it.

Second God is OK with assassination? Really? How ab Jesus? He OK with that?

Jesus said 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's', and never reprimanded a soldier for being in the Roman Army.

NEWS FLASH - Killing is also immoral. Get it?

Nothing but your opinion, which I don't care about. Want to back that up from a Christian perspective? God arranged the deaths of many evil people.

Yes we know you like what the former CIA chief has to say and it has been presented here that several other authorities on the issue disagree with him. Got anything else?

Do I have any more evidence that would change your preconceived notions? Probably not.

[East of Eden]

Argumentum ad populum, either way. Still, lack of oxygen to the brain, as occurs in waterboarding, can be shown to cause irreperable physical damage to the brain.

There was no brain damage (that wasn't there before) done to the three people we waterboarded, and there were doctors present.

Torture if it'll save my son, a US Airman? I'd torture the Pope.

Wouldn't you do that anyway? Just kidding.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 650:

Argumentum ad populum, either way. Still, lack of oxygen to the brain, as occurs in waterboarding, can be shown to cause irreperable physical damage to the brain.

There was no brain damage (that wasn't there before) done to the three people we waterboarded, and there were doctors present.

That doctors are present does in no way affect the fact that when the brain lacks oxygen, cells begin to die. But I love the "that wasn't there before".

My point is, mostly getting back to the psychological aspect, is that we simply can not predict to what extent such damage may or may not occur, given the secrecy involved and the various lengths of time the act occurs involved. A reasonable person may legitimately conclude that waterboarding constitutes torture - in that the act, "carried to it's logical conclusion" will produce death in the individual. Such an act can be legitimately - if not legally - considered torture in that the "tortuee" can not know if they are breathing their last breath. Waterboarding is both physical and psychological torture - regardless of whether it is justified or not.

Wouldn't you do that anyway? Just kidding.

Win

[sarabellum]

Perhaps an on site poll would be in order? (That might be too political?)



I can not wrap my head around waterboarding not being a form of torture.

Forcing someone not to drown?

The chinese water torture for the new age?

Just because they have doctors around watching, means it probably not a massage.

Enhanced interrogation?
One discriptive word to many?
Thats a sign.

[otseng]

If another 9/11 or worse could be prevented with waterboarding, only a lunatic would oppose it.

Moderator Comment

Please avoid suggesting that anyone would be a lunatic for holding a particular position.


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