The Purpose of Government-run Schools

[Shermana]

What is the purpose of schools? Replacement parenting for people who shouldn't be parents? Is school thus a social construct that serves to correct failures among those who are reproducing? What was wrong with the days of apprenticeship? Large families usually meant that learning and skills were taught by the Eldest, even reading.

To what degree is a public, tax-paid school helpful to society and how much cheaper would private and vocational schools be if there was not such a gargantuan competition as the tax-fed beast known as public education? What are the alternatives to produce a society of literate and work-capable people? Wouldn't it be better to train someone as an Electrician or Mechanic or Technician until they're 18 instead with some basic reading and math proficiency to do the job?

Is California's massive debt worth the "education" that it spent over half its budget on?

Should teachers be allowed to set their own rules and tenure standards or should the tax-payers who feed them their salary without a choice have some kind of power to regulate their performance and benefits and such?

What would happen if there was no public schools, but tax breaks and charities that helped reduce prices in addition to the lack of public-force-fed competition?

What perccentage of students actually care to learn what is being taught to them? What is the average cost per student per taxpayer and what class pays the heaviest burden?

Would the economy improve if the Public education system was replaced with a completely private system?

Now there is some sense to the idea of a mandatory policy of testing one's proficiency in a variety of fields to see where their best placement should be. Being able to write coherent sentences is important, but at what point does it become someone else's burden to make sure someone else's offspring can?

[nygreenguy]

What is the purpose of schools?

Educate the public

Replacement parenting for people who shouldn't be parents?

Schools shouldnt parent, only educate.

Is school thus a social construct that serves to correct failures among those who are reproducing?

no

What was wrong with the days of apprenticeship?

Firstly, a comprehensive education is far more beneficial for the student and socitey as a whole. Secondly, many professions today fall outside of trades.

Large families usually meant that learning and skills were taught by the Eldest, even reading.

For one, this limits one education and success to the best in the family. It really limits upward mobility. Secondly, not every home has the ability or resources to educate at home. So, its also limited by practicality.

To what degree is a public, tax-paid school helpful to society and how much cheaper would private and vocational schools be if there was not such a gargantuan competition as the tax-fed beast known as public education?

Have you looked at the history of public schools, and what the country was like before and after them?

What are the alternatives to produce a society of literate and work-capable people? Wouldn't it be better to train someone as an Electrician or Mechanic or Technician until they're 18 instead with some basic reading and math proficiency to do the job?

sort of limits the kids choice on what to do in life? There are TONS of non trade jobs out there, and to set them in a specific path before they can properly make that choice themselves is, well, bad parenting.

Is California's massive debt worth the "education" that it spent over half its budget on?

I think this is an oversimplification of a complex issue.

Should teachers be allowed to set their own rules and tenure standards or should the tax-payers who feed them their salary without a choice have some kind of power to regulate their performance and benefits and such?

the tax-payers are hardly helpless. There are reasons we elect school board officials, we can write the teachers union, you can sit in on classes, etc...

What would happen if there was no public schools, but tax breaks and charities that helped reduce prices in addition to the lack of public-force-fed competition?

Hard to see what the real question is through all this loaded rhetoric.

What perccentage of students actually care to learn what is being taught to them?

I didnt care to learn a lot of what I was taught, but I am grateful it was taught.

What is the average cost per student per taxpayer and what class pays the heaviest burden?

Varies by location.

Would the economy improve if the Public education system was replaced with a completely private system?

The private sector has rarely done anything beneficial when it comes to the public good.

Being able to write coherent sentences is important, but at what point does it become someone else's burden to make sure someone else's offspring can?

If you do not wish to participle in a society, Im sure you can buy an island somewhere and do what you want. Otherwise, you must get used to the idea that you will always pay for the collective public good.

[WinePusher]

I agree and disagree with different aspects of your post, Shermana. Yes, schools should not be replacements of parents, and thus should not have the capability to lecture kids on things like sex. However, of the very few things the government should do, setting up and running a public school system is one of them. However, like all things government does, public education underperforms and is of low quality so the system does need some type of reformation. The best solutions I see are targeting the gross and abusive power that Teacher's Unions possess, and subsidizing parental choice of schools through tax moneies, commonly known as vouchers.

What perccentage of students actually care to learn what is being taught to them? What is the average cost per student per taxpayer and what class pays the heaviest burden?

School plays a vital role in childhood development. Speaking personally, I saw high school as being a window of oppurtunity, and it was in high school that I found my passions, my strengths, and intellectual interests.

Would the economy improve if the Public education system was replaced with a completely private system?

What does the education system have to do with the status of the economy? Notice how things such as education are not targeted by economic policies and rank very low on legislative agendas. If Congress and the White House want to attempt to "improve" the economy, their are much more influential areas they can target, and education isn't one of these areas.

[dianaiad]

I agree and disagree with different aspects of your post, Shermana. Yes, schools should not be replacements of parents, and thus should not have the capability to lecture kids on things like sex. However, of the very few things the government should do, setting up and running a public school system is one of them. However, like all things government does, public education underperforms and is of low quality so the system does need some type of reformation. The best solutions I see are targeting the gross and abusive power that Teacher's Unions possess, and subsidizing parental choice of schools through tax moneies, commonly known as vouchers.

What perccentage of students actually care to learn what is being taught to them? What is the average cost per student per taxpayer and what class pays the heaviest burden?

School plays a vital role in childhood development. Speaking personally, I saw high school as being a window of oppurtunity, and it was in high school that I found my passions, my strengths, and intellectual interests.

I hated high school. I was bored, bullied and belittled..I got a solid C average and was told to 'study typing and go to secretarial school' (this was awhile ago...). I didn't hit my stride until I went to college...where I found my permanent home. When I became a high school TEACHER, it was obvious to me that very few public high school students see their time there as a positive thing; only the alpha group does. As a parent, I sure didn't want my kids to be bullied by the alpha groups....and even less did I want them to learn the values and behaviors OF the alpha groups.

Public schools are good---but they would be far better if they were, well...privatized. Made smaller; made more diverse; different schools offering different curricula...one for those students interested in music and theater arts, perhaps...another for communication--one for math/science, yet another for the 'trades,' each one competing for the students, and with parents in total control over which school was best for their children.

Would the economy improve if the Public education system was replaced with a completely private system?

What does the education system have to do with the status of the economy? Notice how things such as education are not targeted by economic policies and rank very low on legislative agendas. If Congress and the White House want to attempt to "improve" the economy, their are much more influential areas they can target, and education isn't one of these areas.

I dunno...I'm in California. I think education would be a VERY good place to start.

[Shermana]

Yeah, I was a little bit on the "huh" side when I read that Winepusher, you can't see the correlation between the economic vitality of a state, business investment, and....high taxes which make the state go deeply into the red?

It's quite simple, California's in the red with 50% of the blame due to its 50% education budget. California's budget problems are very deep, and most of it is due to entitlement issues, but 50% of those issues would go away if California's education was privatized.

And here's another thing, private education = State GENERATES tax money, public education = PAY tax money.

Anyone who doesn't see the correlation needs an economics class.

[dianaiad]

Yeah, I was a little bit on the "huh" side when I read that Winepusher, you can't see the correlation between the economic vitality of a state, business investment, and....high taxes which make the state go deeply into the red?

It's quite simple, California's in the red with 50% of the blame due to its 50% education budget. California's budget problems are very deep, and most of it is due to entitlement issues, but 50% of those issues would go away if California's education was privatized.

And here's another thing, private education = State GENERATES tax money, public education = PAY tax money.

Anyone who doesn't see the correlation needs an economics class.

Well...not quite. A smaller, "privatized" school system isn't really privatized in the way that privately owned corporations are. The main funding would still be taxes--mostly property taxes. The difference would be that the parents would have more control over where those taxes went, and the schools would have to compete for students. Competition almost always ensures better quality.

As a nation we still must ensure a decent education is possible for the poorest of our kids...a way for them to get OUT of the poverty cycle. The way the public schools are run now, it perpetuates that cycle.

[WinePusher]

Yeah, I was a little bit on the "huh" side when I read that Winepusher, you can't see the correlation between the economic vitality of a state, business investment, and....high taxes which make the state go deeply into the red?

We're talking about Public Education, are we not? You haven't laid out how Public Education and Schools adversely affect the economy with that statement above. By comparison, it is an extremely miniscule part of the Federal Budget, and along with things such as infrastructure and defense, government should fund education.

It's quite simple, California's in the red with 50% of the blame due to its 50% education budget. California's budget problems are very deep, and most of it is due to entitlement issues, but 50% of those issues would go away if California's education was privatized.

How is it possible to privatize education without excluding children in poverty from recieving an education? If we want universal education, which is neccesary for a society to survive, the public will have to foot the bill. Education should be accessible to all, not just the few who can pay for it. And if we want to talk about slashing budgets, there are way way way more important factors incorporated in there that need to be dealt with. And I don't follow state politics, so please give some numbers on how much education fits into California's budget.

And here's another thing, private education = State GENERATES tax money, public education = PAY tax money.

Sorry, if public education were abolished you'd still have to pay taxes, don't know where you got that from. And what's this "Private Education=State Generates Tax Money" that's illogical nonsense. Private Education is funded by the income of an individual, Public Education is funded by tax moneies. What happens if Jacob's single mom can't afford to pay tuition for Jacob's elementary school. Tough luck for Jacob? In an optimal situation, government will subsidize Jacob's tuition in the same way programs like Welfare operate.

[Abraxas]

However, of the very few things the government should do, setting up and running a public school system is one of them. However, like all things government does, public education underperforms and is of low quality so the system does need some type of reformation.

All things the government does? Are you saying that, for example, the US Military underperforms and is of low quality?

The best solutions I see are targeting the gross and abusive power that Teacher's Unions possess,

And yet the teachers unions in Europe are substantially more powerful than the ones in the US and yet somehow they do not have these problems.

Teachers unions are and have always been a red herring. They don't want bad teachers in them any more than parents do any more than a mechanic's shop wants bad mechanics or a law firm wants bad lawyers. The problem is finding the bad ones and finding people to replace them.

Short of outright abuse, how can one reliably tell good teachers from bad ones? Test scores? In my experience some of the worst teachers do well with those because they teach to the test instead of building their student's skill base. What students are saying about them? A lot of the "cool" teachers taught me sod all. Hire someone to sit in the room with them while they teach? Who pays for it? I always hear about how the union defends bad teachers and but I have yet to see anyone propose a solution as to what to do about it beyond "break unions, fire bad teachers" as if the problem would magically correct itself if they weren't unionized.

If you could fire them, who would you replace them with? People are have begun avoiding teaching as a profession. Right now, in the US, there is a teacher shortage. Long hours, low pay, poor benefits, and constant abuse have taken their toll and right now, people do not want to be locked in a room with 30 teenagers who hate them for seven hours a day. The loans required to even complete a teaching degree are enormous, especially for the low rate of return when compared to most of the rest of the private sector.

If you want to improve education, spend more money on it. Make teaching a profession that is worth getting into again. Something people compete to be part of. Create and expand student loan forgiveness programs for teachers. As it is, busting up job benefits like unions will only cause greater damage.

and subsidizing parental choice of schools through tax moneies, commonly known as vouchers.

A sure way to ensure the US completely falls behind the rest of the world in education. There is no evidence, none, that private schools would help. The only evidences ever provided are based on private schools being able to cherry pick students and cherry pick teachers. Put them in the position of having to take every child you are going to see all of the same problems you have with public schools carry over with them. On the flipside, you will see poor neighborhoods get even worse as parents who can afford to will flee from them, overcrowded classes, schools locked in a downward spiral of losing money and having to make cuts lowering performance causing more loss of money (you know, the republican model of school management).

Private schools are part of the problem, if the rich had to send their kids to public schools you can bet they would be of higher quality and be better funded.

What does the education system have to do with the status of the economy? Notice how things such as education are not targeted by economic policies and rank very low on legislative agendas. If Congress and the White House want to attempt to "improve" the economy, their are much more influential areas they can target, and education isn't one of these areas.

In the short term? Little. In the long term, education is everything. You don't see new market sectors pop out of the uneducated regions of the globe. You don't see bleeding edge technology firms setting up in areas behind the educational curve. If you want to stay on top in a global job market, you need the most skilled labor you can get; that comes from schools.

[nygreenguy]

And here's another thing, private education = State GENERATES tax money, public education = PAY tax money.

Anyone who doesn't see the correlation needs an economics class.

Most of this doesnt make sense to me. Most private institutions are not-for-profit meaning they dont pay taxes. Also, as WP mentioned, in order for private education to be accessible by all, it needs to be subsidized.

Also, right now private schools generally need to remain "affordable" because there is FREE public schools they must compete with. If you eliminate this competition, I have a hard time not seeing private education costs skyrocketing. Its like gas prices, they know everyone needs it, there are no alternatives, so every outlet can charge an arm and a leg and we are forced to pay for it.

[dianaiad]

And here's another thing, private education = State GENERATES tax money, public education = PAY tax money.

Anyone who doesn't see the correlation needs an economics class.

Most of this doesnt make sense to me. Most private institutions are not-for-profit meaning they dont pay taxes. Also, as WP mentioned, in order for private education to be accessible by all, it needs to be subsidized.

Also, right now private schools generally need to remain "affordable" because there is FREE public schools they must compete with. If you eliminate this competition, I have a hard time not seeing private education costs skyrocketing. Its like gas prices, they know everyone needs it, there are no alternatives, so every outlet can charge an arm and a leg and we are forced to pay for it.

Actually, private schools have a long history of being anything but affordable. They can choose their students, kick students out who do not do well scholastically or behaviorally, and generally cost a LOT.

Which is why most wealthy kids do not attend public school.

The voucher system, which I support, would take the positive aspects of both the private and the public school systems. First, by allowing private schools to use public money, all children would have access to the quality of education private schools are generally known for. The 'sorting out' process would get the students to the schools that would best meet their needs, rather than being all put in gigantic high schools that are sometimes bigger than major universities, with teachers who can really do little more than babysit.

By the same token, the private schools can have more control over curriculum and discipline; if a student acts up, or doesn't do well, the school can tell that student to go elsewhere.

........and actually act on that.

Oh, the big private high tuition schools would still exist; parents will always try to get the best for their children, and the wealthy who can afford the high tuitions are no different in that from the single mom in the 'hood. I promise you; there isn't a parent on the planet who would deliberately choose a poor education for his/her children if a better one was available. What the voucher system can do (and DID do, in the places where it was tried ) was to bring some of the excellent quality of private education to public schools.