Protesting Muslims for no reason

[Goat]

This video is showing conservtives in Orange county California , protesting at a benefit for charity by Muslims.

I think the video speaks for itself.

While the protesters have the legal right to protest, is this protest justified, or is it in the same category as the West boro Church protesting funerals? (or someplace in between?)

[youtube][/youtube]

[Furrowed Brow]

You guys think your values are so superior that they can handle multiculturalism in any form.

This is a generalisation and mostly wrong because of the unconditional qualification “in any form�. Modern western democratic states committed to gender equality cannot unconditionally accept the kind of rigid gender roles practised in many Islamic cultures. Hence the current debate on the issue and recent speeches by the UK prime Minister and the German Chancellor stating that multiculturalism is dead. Holland which traditionally is the most liberal of countries has a huge problem accepting Islam which it sees as toxic to its brand of liberalism. They tread a dangerous path but there is a debate here.

You think that your way of life is inevitable, that the other just needs time.

Well if you mean a democratic secular society that appeals to general principles like gender equality and human rights and which does its best to keep religion out of politics and its legal framework...then sure I think this is best and wait in hope.

I just don't think any of you would like to walk down Birmingham in the UK,

I have walked there and more often places like Willesden and Wembley in north London and other areas dominated by ethnic minorities. I’m not sure if you mean to accuse folk of being hypocrites or you actually think there is something wrong with these places. Either way you are mostly wrong. Some of these areas do look tatty, but then always have. But it is also generally true that immigrant populations first settle in the poorer post codes. On the other hand a mile from where I live is one of the most affluent estates in the south east. You cannot buy a house there for less than a million pounds, many are considerably more expensive. You basically need to be a millionaire to live there. It is a large and beautiful estate made of large detached houses set in their own grounds. I often cycle or run here. Every other house is now owned by an Indian Asian with a Mercedez. I have cycled here on Sundays when the smell of curry lingers in the air. Ironically these folk appear to speak the Queen’s English better than I do. If I had the money I would buy a house there tomorrow.

let alone live in the Middle East.

Like a lot of folk I would not wish to permanently live in the middle east for its lack of democracy and the dominance of religion. I would not wish to live anywhere I could not be openly atheist and live my life as I wish.

[Wootah]

This is a generalisation and mostly wrong because of the unconditional qualification “in any form�. Modern western democratic states committed to gender equality cannot unconditionally accept the kind of rigid gender roles practised in many Islamic cultures. Hence the current debate on the issue and recent speeches by the UK prime Minister and the German Chancellor stating that multiculturalism is dead. Holland which traditionally is the most liberal of countries has a huge problem accepting Islam which it sees as toxic to its brand of liberalism. They tread a dangerous path but there is a debate here.

I think you basically agreed. You might want to nuance the position but it appears to be agreement.

Well if you mean a democratic secular society that appeals to general principles like gender equality and human rights and which does its best to keep religion out of politics and its legal framework...then sure I think this is best and wait in hope.

It's not something you can wait for, its something you work for and work on daily.

I have walked there and more often places like Willesden and Wembley in north London and other areas dominated by ethnic minorities. I’m not sure if you mean to accuse folk of being hypocrites or you actually think there is something wrong with these places. Either way you are mostly wrong. Some of these areas do look tatty, but then always have. But it is also generally true that immigrant populations first settle in the poorer post codes.

Time will tell. I don't believe a Western lifestyle can be pursued freely there any longer.

On the other hand a mile from where I live is one of the most affluent estates in the south east. You cannot buy a house there for less than a million pounds, many are considerably more expensive. You basically need to be a millionaire to live there. It is a large and beautiful estate made of large detached houses set in their own grounds. I often cycle or run here. Every other house is now owned by an Indian Asian with a Mercedez. I have cycled here on Sundays when the smell of curry lingers in the air. Ironically these folk appear to speak the Queen’s English better than I do. If I had the money I would buy a house there tomorrow.

If I had the money and desire the Middle East is probably a great playboy ground as well. Wealth and adjusting to society with wealth is easy so the point seems moot.

Like a lot of folk I would not wish to permanently live in the middle east for its lack of democracy and the dominance of religion. I would not wish to live anywhere I could not be openly atheist and live my life as I wish.

You and I will not feel the repercussions in our life times and that occurs as somewhat selfish.

[East of Eden]

I have walked there and more often places like Willesden and Wembley in north London and other areas dominated by ethnic minorities. I’m not sure if you mean to accuse folk of being hypocrites or you actually think there is something wrong with these places. Either way you are mostly wrong.

This lady disagrees with you. She describes parts of Birmingham as being police no-go areas for 20 years.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/3650/full

The Mole Mole Special: A Stranger in My Own Land
ANONYMOUS
January/February 2011
I have just returned to London, where I have lived since I was 11. I have been away for four years, living as an ethnic minority in a monocultural part of the world, amassing a host of stories to tell to disbelieving friends. On the whole, I am glad to return. I shan't miss some locals' assumptions that, being a white woman, if I was outside after dark, as I occasionally was, usually to walk the few metres between my house and the church, I must be a prostitute eager to give them a blow job. I shan't miss the abuse my priest husband received: the daubing of "Dirty white dogs" in red paint on the church door, the barrage of stones thrown at him by children shouting "Satan". He was called a "f***ing white bastard" more than once, though, notably, never when in a cassock. I will also not miss the way our garden acted as the local rubbish dump, with items ranging from duvets and TV sets, to rats (dead or twitching) glued to cardboard strips, a popular local method of vermin control to stem the large numbers of them which scuttled between the rubbish piled in gardens and on pavements. Yes, I am very glad to have left Britain's second city.

For four years, we lived in inner-city Birmingham, in what has been a police no-go area for 20 years. We know that because some plain-clothed cops told us when they asked to use our vicarage as a stake-out to bust drugs rings that pervade the area. Having heard a parishioner's tales of what his neighbours did to him when he was wrongfully suspected of having grassed up a cock-fighting ring, we refused, explaining that we had to live here, they didn't. Even during this time we saw the area change. When we arrived, the population was predominantly Pakistani. Now Somalis are there in equal number. Most of the run-down Irish pubs were turned into mosques during our time.

As a woman, it was difficult for me to gain many first-hand impressions of the Muslims. I was generally ignored by both men and women, and on the rare occasion that I had to interact, when for example a car was parked illegally and blocking my gate, I was addressed as if inconsequential. My husband, however, faithfully reported conversations which you may find somewhat alarming. One of our favourite dinner-party pieces is this: opposite our vicarage there is a "library" which has some computers, some burkas and occasionally tracts that say offensive things about Jews and Christians. My husband did his photo-copying there, and got on rather well with everybody. One day he was chatting to a man with a passing resemblance to Lawrence of Arabia, who had just arrived from Antwerp — one of an increasing number of Muslims who are arriving here with EU passports. He asked him why he had come to Birmingham. He was surprised at the question: "Everybody know. Birmingham — best place in Europe to be pure Muslim." Well, there must be many places in Europe where Muslims are entirely free to practise their faith, but I suspect there are few places in which they can have so little contact with the civic and legal structure of a Western state if they choose. It seems to be particularly easy to "disappear" if that is their intention. A parishioner once described a lorry pulling up outside his house, the side opening to reveal stacked mattresses full of sleepy, and presumably illegal, immigrants, who staggered out into broad Brummie daylight. We heard tales of how houses are exchanged for cash payments in our area. An untaxed car was once clamped by a frightened-looking official at 8am, but within hours the owner of the vehicle had organised the clamps to be sawn off, and he sped away.

Another instance of separation from the Western world is revealed in the following: my husband frequently chatted to a neighbour who could be described as one of the more questioning Muslims, and who has often provided an insight into the locals' mindset. Even this man, however, believes what the whole community thinks: the 9/11 planes were organised by Jews. Everybody knows there were no Jewish people in the World Trade Centre that day, as they had been tipped off. Oh, and the Mumbai terrorists had been kidnapped and brainwashed by Indian people. The tendency towards denial is strong. When my husband mentioned the "dirty white dogs" graffiti to a local Muslim, the response was, "One of your people did it." I have to say that the police's response was no better when the local Methodists complained about the same thing. They chose not to believe it had happened, since we had removed all sign of it with the buckets of anti-graffiti chemicals we had stocked since we arrived. They asked, somewhat pathetically: "Are you sure it was racist?"

To a London reader, born and bred with multiculturalism, I know that my stories may come across as outlandish and exaggerated, and that I must surely be a BNP voter — I have observed people's expressions as they have listened to my tales of life in Brum. When I recently told a friend how a large Taliban flag fluttered gaily on a house near St Andrew's football stadium for some months, her cry of "Can't you tell the police?" made me reflect how far many of our inner cities have been abandoned by our key workers: our doctors and nurses drive in from afar, the police, as mentioned before, have shut down their stations and never venture in unless in extremis — they and ambulance crews have been known to be attacked — even the local Imam lives in a leafier area.

Only the priest remains, if you can get one — the thriving but clerically-vacant church down the road has had no applicant in two years. In their absence, we get stabbings that never make the news, dog- and cock-fighting rings, cars torched as pranks and cars used for peddling heroin. (One of the more amusing moments of our time came when a local lad provided one reason people often gave us stares when we drove past such deals: "Two white people wearing seatbelts — you've got to be cops.") In their absence, we simply have the witness of those who are unlikely to be heard, who, through a variety of unfortunate circumstances, have not been able to move out: the elderly, the infirm, the illiterate, the chronically poor. Indeed, some of the Muslim residents deeply regret the flight of the non-Muslim population. It is they who now have to live in a crime-ridden ghetto.

On holiday in Germany recently, we watched a TV documentary about how schools were coping with Essen's growing Muslim community, and how the community itself felt. When it was over, we turned to each other, and said simultaneously (a drawback of having been married for a while), "This could not have been made in Britain." At the moment, also in Germany, the whole country is debating Thilo Sarrazin's controversial book Deutschland schafft sich ab ("Germany abolishes itself"), in which the author — a former member of the board of the Bundesbank and the German Social Democrats — examines research about immigrant communities and then makes specific recommendations about the integration of the Muslim community. I have only seen scant reference to this in the British press, which usually dismisses it, wrongly and lazily in my view, as good old German racism. This has nothing whatsoever to do with race. The Muslim community in Birmingham, for instance, is made up of people from many continents and races, including Afghans, Yemenis, Pakistanis, Indians and Somalis.

There is no doubt in my mind that we need to have the same openness in discussing what is happening to many cities in Britain. If current demographic trends continue over the next few decades, the West Midlands, as well as other parts of the country, will become a predominantly Muslim area. Much more needs to be done to integrate the communities among whom I lived, and we need to be much less negligent of our own values too. Frankly, if we happened to walk down Broad Street on a Friday night, where mobs of identically undressed and mostly aesthetically unpleasing gals and lads were on the piss and pull, it was almost a relief to drive back to our ghetto enclave.

It is time to rub the rime from our eyes and to look clearly at the shape of Britain today. Everyone living here needs to be able to talk about what they see, without the lazy or fearful, but certainly paralysing, accusation of racism. Only then will we be able to discern what is best for the future.

[Goat]

Forgive me for the hyperbole, How about.. Are these people the terrorists the speakers you are defending claim?

I would definitely look at where their funds go.

Do you feel the same about Christian Charities?? How about Jewish Charities or Hindu Charities?

[Furrowed Brow]

I have walked there and more often places like Willesden and Wembley in north London and other areas dominated by ethnic minorities. I’m not sure if you mean to accuse folk of being hypocrites or you actually think there is something wrong with these places. Either way you are mostly wrong.

This lady disagrees with you. She describes parts of Birmingham as being police no-go areas for 20 years.

the majority of what the lady complains of is true of large parts of Britain’s poorest estate, and she seems to be conflating issues. My estate is majority white, and if you report the wrong folks to the police there will be payback. Arson attacks and legs being broken with baseball bats are two examples of which I am aware. Mostly it is intimidation and stuff like excrement through the letterbox. There are families the police quietly advise people not to report if they don't want to face the reprisals.

She complains of cockfighting which along with dog fighting is a white English underclass class illegal activity as much as anything. Muslim drug dealers...hmmm...are they like Christian drug dealers? It is legitmate for Muslims to say drug dealing has nothing to do withtheir religion as it is for a Christian. Rubbish in the front garden.....yep.....I have neighbours who have had there front doors set alight. Nothing to do with religion though.

She complains of "white dogs" around my way the graffiti is swastika and BNP. Racist graffiti is poisonous but this is reflective of wider issues of poverty, immigration, race, ignorance and hardly anything to do with religion. Except to get around the UK race laws the BNP attacks Islam and uses the word "Muslim" as a euphemism for "black man". A couple of years ago the local mosque had a slab of pork thrown over its wall. Posters and graffits to that says "no whites" is mostly the work of the BNP and their ilk.

"No go areas" are true of many areas in the UK and whilst an exaggeration "tough areeas" are a general problem. Again if there is a domestic call in my street on a Friday night the police never turn up with less than six. Sorry I read stuff like this and I see one group being scapegoated for wider social and economic problems.

[Wootah]

Forgive me for the hyperbole, How about.. Are these people the terrorists the speakers you are defending claim?

I would definitely look at where their funds go.

Do you feel the same about Christian Charities?? How about Jewish Charities or Hindu Charities?

I feel the same about all organisations where there is a reason to doubt their activities. I think you are simply not being practical. If you lost your keys do you look where you last were or where the light is?

[Wootah]

In response to ref:Protesting Muslims for no reason

Indeed charity should begin at home.

[East of Eden]

I have walked there and more often places like Willesden and Wembley in north London and other areas dominated by ethnic minorities. I’m not sure if you mean to accuse folk of being hypocrites or you actually think there is something wrong with these places. Either way you are mostly wrong.

This lady disagrees with you. She describes parts of Birmingham as being police no-go areas for 20 years.

the majority of what the lady complains of is true of large parts of Britain’s poorest estate, and she seems to be conflating issues. My estate is majority white, and if you report the wrong folks to the police there will be payback. Arson attacks and legs being broken with baseball bats are two examples of which I am aware. Mostly it is intimidation and stuff like excrement through the letterbox. There are families the police quietly advise people not to report if they don't want to face the reprisals.

She complains of cockfighting which along with dog fighting is a white English underclass class illegal activity as much as anything. Muslim drug dealers...hmmm...are they like Christian drug dealers? It is legitmate for Muslims to say drug dealing has nothing to do withtheir religion as it is for a Christian. Rubbish in the front garden.....yep.....I have neighbours who have had there front doors set alight. Nothing to do with religion though.

She complains of "white dogs" around my way the graffiti is swastika and BNP. Racist graffiti is poisonous but this is reflective of wider issues of poverty, immigration, race, ignorance and hardly anything to do with religion. Except to get around the UK race laws the BNP attacks Islam and uses the word "Muslim" as a euphemism for "black man". A couple of years ago the local mosque had a slab of pork thrown over its wall. Posters and graffits to that says "no whites" is mostly the work of the BNP and their ilk.

"No go areas" are true of many areas in the UK and whilst an exaggeration "tough areeas" are a general problem. Again if there is a domestic call in my street on a Friday night the police never turn up with less than six. Sorry I read stuff like this and I see one group being scapegoated for wider social and economic problems.

Does the Taliban flag being displayed bother you? Too many Muslims seem to be interested in domination, not assimilation.

[East of Eden]

Forgive me for the hyperbole, How about.. Are these people the terrorists the speakers you are defending claim?

I would definitely look at where their funds go.

Do you feel the same about Christian Charities?? How about Jewish Charities or Hindu Charities?

If they were supporting terror groups, yes.

[Furrowed Brow]

Does the Taliban flag being displayed bother you?

No. To be true veil wearing and forced marriages do bother me but flags no.

Too many Muslims seem to be interested in domination, not assimilation.

One Muslim interested in domination is too many. But this kind of language is not an accurate reflection of the vast majority of Muslims who seem to want to just get on with their lives and worship their god. There are always vocal minorities. The Muslim community is no wiser or better than the rest of us and they have their versions of Westboro Baptists church.

Ignorance and hate are the enemy at the gate, not Islam.