Where do these beliefs come from?

[CuriosityCuredTheCat]

Hello, I just signed up so I apologize if there is a subject already on this (I'm sure there is) but my questions are....

Where did the belief that we go to heaven when we die come from? Of all my years of reading the bible I have never seen a scripture that indicates that we do. Also where did the idea of a fiery torture filled hell with a red horned devil come from? Am I missing out on something because I can't find anything to support those ideas?

I think the bible is up for interpretation. I guess people can read the same this as me and just see it a totally different way. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness but I'm trying to read the bible without a specific religious mind set and just take it for what it is. But I'm just wondering other peoples opinions on why they believe the way they do.

[earl]

Thats pretty much what I thought. Scaring people into being christian seems like quite the christian thing to do....

Hi Curiosity,
The christians are only following suite.Hell is in the framework of the holy book they have been taught from by christians who began or adapted this belief long ago and now it is tradition.Tradition is almost impossible to break.The bible is believed by many to be the unedited word of God just as the jews with judism who believe their holy book is unedited as do the muslims with the Quran.
Each one I believe has some one thing that is a primitive doctrine.Like wise they all contain someone thing useful in grasping the reality of God.I think the gospels alone are the greater expression of God than all other holy material combined even with the hiccups it contains.

[Shermana]

In the Torah -- the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are considered the most authoritative -- an "afterlife" is not mentioned. Allusions to a "next life" in the rest of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the "Old Testament," are vague and unspecific in the extreme and may well be metaphorical references to the memory of a departed person left among those who remain alive. To this day, Judaism has no formal teaching about an afterlife; we leave that matter to God. Some, even many, Jews believe in a life after death of some kind; very many do not. But none that I know of will claim to know what form it might take or what it is like.

I have no comment on the New Testament.

Again, 2 Esdras used to be part of Hebrew Canon, until the Rabbis took it out along with the rest of the so-called "Apocrypha". And if our Rabbis today continue to deny the Torah mentions Afterlife, they are being intellectually dishonest...The Witch of Endor clearly calls the Ghost of Samuel, why don't they mention this?

[Shermana]

Also, the Torah hints that there are ghosts and spirits that can be summoned when it specifically commands the Israelites not to do it. If it was all just fun and games, it wouldn't have exile as the punishment.

[Goat]

In the Torah -- the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are considered the most authoritative -- an "afterlife" is not mentioned. Allusions to a "next life" in the rest of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the "Old Testament," are vague and unspecific in the extreme and may well be metaphorical references to the memory of a departed person left among those who remain alive. To this day, Judaism has no formal teaching about an afterlife; we leave that matter to God. Some, even many, Jews believe in a life after death of some kind; very many do not. But none that I know of will claim to know what form it might take or what it is like.

I have no comment on the New Testament.

Again, 2 Esdras used to be part of Hebrew Canon, until the Rabbis took it out along with the rest of the so-called "Apocrypha". And if our Rabbis today continue to deny the Torah mentions Afterlife, they are being intellectually dishonest...The Witch of Endor clearly calls the Ghost of Samuel, why don't they mention this?

I challenge you to provide evidence that 2 Esdras was ever part of the Jewish Canon. Just because it is believed part of it was written in Aramaic doesn't mean it was ever accepted by the Jewish faith.

[cnorman18]

In the Torah -- the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are considered the most authoritative -- an "afterlife" is not mentioned. Allusions to a "next life" in the rest of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the "Old Testament," are vague and unspecific in the extreme and may well be metaphorical references to the memory of a departed person left among those who remain alive. To this day, Judaism has no formal teaching about an afterlife; we leave that matter to God. Some, even many, Jews believe in a life after death of some kind; very many do not. But none that I know of will claim to know what form it might take or what it is like.

I have no comment on the New Testament.

Again, 2 Esdras used to be part of Hebrew Canon, until the Rabbis took it out along with the rest of the so-called "Apocrypha". And if our Rabbis today continue to deny the Torah mentions Afterlife, they are being intellectually dishonest...The Witch of Endor clearly calls the Ghost of Samuel, why don't they mention this?

I don't know that 2 Esdras was ever part of the Hebrew Scriptures; and it most certainly was never, ever part of the Torah, and the Torah is the most authoritative part of the tradition. If you have an example of the afterlife being unequivocally mentioned or alluded to in the Torah, please post it. I don't know of any such. Any other allusions to an afterlife in the Hebrew Scriptures are, as I said, vague and unspecific.

The "ghost of Samuel" -- whether one reads that story literally or not -- has nothing to say about the afterlife, what it is like, who goes where, or why. Jews are cautioned not to take familiar spirits and visions seriously, and there is a reason for that; they are more likely to be deceptions than actual messengers from God. That's why consulting mediums is forbidden, which is emphasized pretty strongly in 1 Samuel 28 itself.

Belief in the afterlife is not forbidden to Jews; but it isn't a requirement, either. We have no Creeds and no catechisms. One may be an observant, religious Jew and not even believe in God. There are no positive doctrinal requirements, though there are a few things that one is FORBIDDEN to believe: That there are more gods than one and/or that Jesus was God Incarnate are two of them. If a Jew believes in Heaven, no other Jew has the authority to say that he is wrong. It's a concept remarkably similar to that of "freedom of religion."

[Shermana]

Well, Chronicles and Samuel and Kings are all written meant to be taken literally.

So if Samuel has a) a ghost and b) it can be summoned by a Witch and C) the Torah has a prohibition against doing so....

Put it together and you get the abcs of afterlife confirmed.

[cnorman18]

Well, Chronicles and Samuel and Kings are all written meant to be taken literally.

So what? The authority of a given passage is not determined by its author, but by the tradition, which means by the consensus of debate among the Wise (who are also identified by consensus of the whole community) over the course of centuries. It can, and does, therefore change (which is why it's irrelevant whether 2 Esdras was ever part of the Canon; it isn't now). Not only do the authors of Scripture no longer have a veto, neither does God Himself. The principle is called "The Torah is not in Heaven," and I've written of it here many times.

So if Samuel has a) a ghost and b) it can be summoned by a Witch and C) the Torah has a prohibition against doing so....

Put it together and you get the abcs of afterlife confirmed.

And you are of course perfectly free to read in that way if you like, but no one else is required to do so, particularly any Jew. The rabbis of old and the rabbis of today don't; end of discussion, as far as normative Jewish belief is concerned. That doesn't mean that there is NO afterlife; that isn't a teaching of Judaism either. There is no required doctrine. We generally believe as we choose, where theological or metaphysical matters are concerned. Ethics, we'll argue all day; how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or what happens after death -- enh. Not our concern.

For what it's worth, the Bible, even when read literally, does not have the same kind of authority for Jews that it does for fundamentalist Christians. The ultimate authority, as I say, lies in the tradition -- and even that is not absolute.

[Shermana]

With all that in mind, one can say that the Prohibition against Seancing/Consulting with Spirits as proof that it can be done and it's not just something like "don't do it even though its just a harmless nonsense where no spirits are actually being seanced". It's a rather harsh penalty, exile. And then there's the subject of 'putting a Sorceress" to death. What is a Sorceress.........?

So yes, everyone is welcome to determine what is meant to be literal and figurative, but my individual way of looking at it is by the pattern. If we see a pattern that it's a Crime to summon ghosts, and the Witch does this and makes Saul guilty by doing so, I particularly take this to be a literal account and a proof of the fact that the Torah commandment can be violated as it says quite literally.

So I respect anyone's opinion on what the Torah says, but the differences of afterlife have existed since before the Pharisees and the Sadducees who believed in none at all. Many argue that "Sheol" is very similar to Hades. The subject of 2 Esdras is difficult because of little concencus on what Jews went by and where the Apocryphal texts came from, but if one accepts it, it certainly puts a confirmation on the Afterlife, so it would be of a rather critical importance for future academic study on Jewish use of 2 Esdras.

Coming from a Reform Jewish family, I understand that opinions on the Torah are very subjective on one's idea of Halakah, and the Orthodox Rabbis of today are pretty much traditional as to what's been going on for the last 1600 years....But I take it to the 2200 years. I believe there's a great deal of discussion in the Talmud about the Afterlife, such as some hideous punishments too obscene to post. The idea of the "World to Come" has been divided as well. Kaballists such as Hasidics agree completely with Reincarnation....

The question boils down to...what did the Jews believe 2200 years ago when the Temple stood?

[cnorman18]

With all that in mind, one can say that the Prohibition against Seancing/Consulting with Spirits as proof that it can be done and it's not just something like "don't do it even though its just a harmless nonsense where no spirits are actually being seanced". It's a rather harsh penalty, exile. And then there's the subject of 'putting a Sorceress" to death. What is a Sorceress.........?

Beats me. Maybe the penalty is for fraud.

So yes, everyone is welcome to determine what is meant to be literal and figurative, but my individual way of looking at it is by the pattern. If we see a pattern that it's a Crime to summon ghosts, and the Witch does this and makes Saul guilty by doing so, I particularly take this to be a literal account and a proof of the fact that the Torah commandment can be violated as it says quite literally.

Of course it can be violated; it's just not settled if what the witch called up was actually the soul of Samuel or a demon, for instance. Beats me. Again.

So I respect anyone's opinion on what the Torah says, but the differences of afterlife have existed since before the Pharisees and the Sadducees who believed in none at all. Many argue that "Sheol" is very similar to Hades. The subject of 2 Esdras is difficult because of little concencus on what Jews went by and where the Apocryphal texts came from, but if one accepts it, it certainly puts a confirmation on the Afterlife, so it would be of a rather critical importance for future academic study on Jewish use of 2 Esdras.

Maybe. I think if that question were settled, the question of what "the Next Life" means would be too.

Coming from a Reform Jewish family, I understand that opinions on the Torah are very subjective on one's idea of Halakah, and the Orthodox Rabbis of today are pretty much traditional as to what's been going on for the last 1600 years....But I take it to the 2200 years. I believe there's a great deal of discussion in the Talmud about the Afterlife, such as some hideous punishments too obscene to post. The idea of the "World to Come" has been divided as well. Kaballists such as Hasidics agree completely with Reincarnation....

Um, that's a pretty broad statement... I'd agree that some, at least, regard it as an option, but I don't know that it's universally accepted as the destiny of everybody. If that's the case, then "the Next Life" would just be the next one here.

To me, one of the most notable things about Judaism is how little consensus there is about these things. From where I sit, the reason for that is that they're just not very important from a practical point of view. What can anybody DO about any of these things? We'll all find out soon enough.

The question boils down to...what did the Jews believe 2200 years ago when the Temple stood?

I suppose, though I'm not sure why that should be authoritative either. If there's anything that's absolutely true of Judaism in general, it's that it isn't static or committed to be frozen in time anywhere. For starters, we don't have a Temple any more at all, anywhere. Sort of HAD to change our beliefs and our way of practicing our religion, no?

Indeed, that's why I didn't go Orthodox in my own conversion, but Conservative. Peace to the Orthodox, and God bless them for keeping the old ways alive, but I don't think ossifying Jewish belief and practice as it was 200 years ago or whenever is authentic Judaism, at least not for ME. Moses never wore a yarmulke, and I don't think he wore a wide-brimmed black hat or shuckled either.

You might want to take a look at this thread to get an idea of my own views; and as I say there, I speak only for myself.

As far as all this about the "Next Life" is concerned, I'll stand by my own carefully considered position, which I will now express in technical, theological and metaphysical terms:

"I dunno."