Hello everyone,
I know that Christians' opinions on this are quite varied and often mutually exclusive, so I wanted to ask the Christian theists on DC what they believe happens when we die, and why they believe this. "The Bible says so" will constitute a valid answer in this thread (although additional relevant evidence, if any is to be found, would be most welcome) provided that one can show where the Bible says so and is ready to discuss coherence issues (with respect to other beliefs or passages).
Specifically, I'm looking for theological explanations/theories which can account for the following questions among other things:
-Does everyone go to Heaven once they die?
-If not, who goes where (Eternal Hell? Temporary Hell? Something else?), and based on which criteria?
-What happens in the aforementioned places? What are they like?
-Is this a just and fair way of proceeding (whatever you believe this way to be)?
-Etc.
Depending on the answers, I (and others) will probably ask further questions that have to do with the coherence of the theories which (hopefully) will be presented here with respect to other common Christian theistic beliefs.
Thank you for your participation.
-Woland
->Afterlife<-
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Shermana
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Post #2
The original set of Jewish scrpitures, which includes 2 Esdras, clearly defines hell as a temporary purgatory before you get reborn.
More often than not, Christians I debate with get offended when I mention that John the Baptist was the Reincarnation of ELijah, in Jesus' own words. (They come up with some metaphorization like "He was acting in the spirit of Elijah")
Luke 16:17-31, some people say its a parable though its' not introduced as one, (as all other parables seem to be), clearly defines the Afterlife as "Abraham's Bosom" (ancient Jewish concept) for the righteous and those who endure, and Gehenna for those who refuse to obey "Moses and the Prophets". The implication is that the Rich man goes to burn because he didn't help or feed poor Lazarus, which was what the Prophets commanded him to do.
More often than not, Christians I debate with get offended when I mention that John the Baptist was the Reincarnation of ELijah, in Jesus' own words. (They come up with some metaphorization like "He was acting in the spirit of Elijah")
Luke 16:17-31, some people say its a parable though its' not introduced as one, (as all other parables seem to be), clearly defines the Afterlife as "Abraham's Bosom" (ancient Jewish concept) for the righteous and those who endure, and Gehenna for those who refuse to obey "Moses and the Prophets". The implication is that the Rich man goes to burn because he didn't help or feed poor Lazarus, which was what the Prophets commanded him to do.
Post #3
Was John the baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah.Shermana wrote:The original set of Jewish scrpitures, which includes 2 Esdras, clearly defines hell as a temporary purgatory before you get reborn.
More often than not, Christians I debate with get offended when I mention that John the Baptist was the Reincarnation of ELijah, in Jesus' own words. (They come up with some metaphorization like "He was acting in the spirit of Elijah")
Luke 16:17-31, some people say its a parable though its' not introduced as one, (as all other parables seem to be), clearly defines the Afterlife as "Abraham's Bosom" (ancient Jewish concept) for the righteous and those who endure, and Gehenna for those who refuse to obey "Moses and the Prophets". The implication is that the Rich man goes to burn because he didn't help or feed poor Lazarus, which was what the Prophets commanded him to do.
If you read Jo.1.21 again you will find John the baptist was questioned if he was Elijah and he stated that he was not.
On to theological explanations.
the hell concept is at first Mithric and inconsistent with God's nature.Placing people in hell requires that revenge and or vengance ,something that I see God does not possess.
Another is to be placed in hell one will have to have their name maintained in the book of life-a record of the living ,not erased.If people lived in hell then their name remains in the book of life just as those who are physically and spiritually living elsewhere.If a person is in hell and experiences pain then that person is very alive and very conscious of the surroundings there.They will live throughout eternity just as other's do.A mortal body is very fragile and temperature sensitive when a lifetime of pain is forced upon it.
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Shermana
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Post #4
"They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No.""
Of course he wasn't Elijah. He was John the Baptist.
However, right after he dies (immediately after he dies), Jesus goes to speak with Elijah's soul, along with Moses.
So what do you make of the verses preceding that where he explains he was the SOUL of ELijah.
If I was the soul of Abraham Lincoln but incarnated as Shermana, I wouldn't tell people I was Abraham Lincoln. I'd say I was Shermana.
So yeah, explain what Jesus was talking about right before he goes to see Elijah's sou;l.
Of course he wasn't Elijah. He was John the Baptist.
However, right after he dies (immediately after he dies), Jesus goes to speak with Elijah's soul, along with Moses.
So what do you make of the verses preceding that where he explains he was the SOUL of ELijah.
If I was the soul of Abraham Lincoln but incarnated as Shermana, I wouldn't tell people I was Abraham Lincoln. I'd say I was Shermana.
So yeah, explain what Jesus was talking about right before he goes to see Elijah's sou;l.
Post #6
Shermana wrote:"the hell concept is at first Mithric and inconsistent with God's nature."
Ummm, back that up.
The web has extensive articles on Mithraism and hell predating the minitry of Jesus or christianity to follow.
Mithraism, to me, crept into the gospels by editors who were exposed to Mithraism.
Hell and the vengance,revenge and torture from Mithraism are inconsistent with the nature of God.
Hell from the current viewpoint of todays believers is considered an everlasting torture to all who will reside there.What is the payoff for God to do this ?If you are a father do you desire that your children recive uncivilized torture treatment as a punishment?
Torturing people is uncivilized and unGodly.
Alternate view is -The simplist act is inaction.Why resurect someone only to a new life of torture?
Let the dead in christ remain dead.They have already expressed their desires in their life.
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Shermana
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Post #7
1. When was Mithraism founded?
2. When was The Torah written, including the Book of Samuel, and 2 Esdras?
3. Are you saying the Egyptians and Ancient Greeks did not have a concept of Hell before the Cult of Mithras?
2. When was The Torah written, including the Book of Samuel, and 2 Esdras?
3. Are you saying the Egyptians and Ancient Greeks did not have a concept of Hell before the Cult of Mithras?
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cnorman18
Post #8
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"Support your assertions/arguments with evidence."
That is particularly important when one's assertions are questioned. When one makes a statement that is unchallenged, e.g. "The sun will rise tomorrow," evidence is not required: but when one is asked to provide evidence, as you have been here, it is not adequate or acceptable to reply with, essentially, "Look it up for yourself."
We don't expect others to do our work for us here. If you are challenged on a statement of fact, as opposed to an acknowledged unsupported opinion, you are expected to provide references, sources, links, or other evidence that can be verified by others.
Just a reminder, not a warning or an intervention:earl wrote:The web has extensive articles on Mithraism and hell predating the minitry of Jesus or christianity to follow...Shermana wrote:"the hell concept is at first Mithric and inconsistent with God's nature."
Ummm, back that up.
Forum Rule 5 reads, in part:
"Support your assertions/arguments with evidence."
That is particularly important when one's assertions are questioned. When one makes a statement that is unchallenged, e.g. "The sun will rise tomorrow," evidence is not required: but when one is asked to provide evidence, as you have been here, it is not adequate or acceptable to reply with, essentially, "Look it up for yourself."
We don't expect others to do our work for us here. If you are challenged on a statement of fact, as opposed to an acknowledged unsupported opinion, you are expected to provide references, sources, links, or other evidence that can be verified by others.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: ->Afterlife<-
Post #9As you well pointed out so-called christians have a million varying points of view as to what happens at death. The bible, however is quite clear on the matter.
What happens when we die?
At death a person ceases to exist. They are no longer conscious of anything and have no thoughts or feelings. Death is the opposite of life.
Scriptures from the bible
Online Audio Lessons
"What happens when we die?"
Further reading...
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... ality.html
The bible teaches in Ecclesiates chapter 9 verse 5 that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" therefore they cannot feel anything. Dead people have returned to the same conditions as Adam was in BEFORE he had been created. Before God made Adam he did not exist, after he died, not only would his body return to dust but he would return to the same state as he was in before he was made, that is to say 'non existence'.
The Bibles Viewpoint—Will Bad People Burn in Hell?
Further reading
http://www.facethefacts.co.za/?p=81
The word "hell" in the bible is translated from the hebrew "sheol" and simply means the common grave of mankind. It's were all people (good or bad) go and are in a state of non-existence.
IN DEPTH STUDY: Hades, Sheol, ...
http://bythebible.page.tl/Hell-Fire.htm
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... myths.html[/i]
What happens when we die?
At death a person ceases to exist. They are no longer conscious of anything and have no thoughts or feelings. Death is the opposite of life.
Scriptures from the bible
- Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" -- New World Translation
Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." -- New International Version (©1984)
Psalms 146: 3, 4: "... the son of earthling man, [...] His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish. "
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning - it itself will die.
Online Audio Lessons
"What happens when we die?"
Further reading...
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... ality.html
No, the bible mentions good individuals such as King David that did NOT go to heaven and in fact indicates no individuals that lived (and died) prior to Jesus' death and resurrection ascended to heavenly life.Woland wrote:-Does everyone go to Heaven once they die?
- Acts 2:34: “David [whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to Jehovah’s heart’] did not ascend to the heavens.�
Matt. 11:11: “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.� (So John did not go to heaven when he died.)
The idea of eternal torment in hellfire is a pagan teaching adopted by modern day Christendom from ancient babylonian beliefs. It is not a biblical teaching.Woland wrote:-If not, who goes where?Eternal Hell? Temporary Hell?
The bible teaches in Ecclesiates chapter 9 verse 5 that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" therefore they cannot feel anything. Dead people have returned to the same conditions as Adam was in BEFORE he had been created. Before God made Adam he did not exist, after he died, not only would his body return to dust but he would return to the same state as he was in before he was made, that is to say 'non existence'.
The Bibles Viewpoint—Will Bad People Burn in Hell?
Further reading
http://www.facethefacts.co.za/?p=81
What is "Hell" in scripture?Woland wrote:What happens in the aforementioned places? What are they like?
The word "hell" in the bible is translated from the hebrew "sheol" and simply means the common grave of mankind. It's were all people (good or bad) go and are in a state of non-existence.
IN DEPTH STUDY: Hades, Sheol, ...
http://bythebible.page.tl/Hell-Fire.htm
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... myths.html[/i]
