What's Jesus talking about in Matt 5:17-20? Mosaic Law..?

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:22 am

Hmm...are Christians supposed to be obeying the Law of Moses? Or is there some kind of way to explain these passages in a way that turns them upside down so they mean you don't have to or something...? Did Paul contradict verses like this? Many people say he actually did, and there were "2 gospels". How does one reconcile these lines?

Verily your righteousness must exceed the Scribes and the Pharisees or you will in no wise see the Kingdom of Heaven.

He who breaks and teaches to break the least of the Laws shall be called the Least among the Kingdom.

Many use Matthew 5:17's use of "Fulfilled" to mean that Jesus did away with the Law. While of course, the word "fulfliled" can be used 11 other times to mean "perform". It can be used in the one time case as "abolish", so they read it as "I did not come to abolish the Law, but to abolish it."

And then there's "Jesus is the End of the Law" , but the word is Telos, which means "End Result" rather than "Termination".

And then throw Matthew 7:22-23 into the mix. "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness"

So what is righteousness, what is sin and is it related to righteousness? Does one have a quantifiable amount of righteousness based on their adherence to some kind of code of conduct? Who is less righteous than the Scribes and the Pharisees? What does it mean to be called the Least in the Kingdom and does this mean anyone teaching to break Laws such as Sabbath shall be called the Least or worse?

Why did Yashua command his Disciples to "pray that your flight does not take place on the Sabbath day?"

And why was Paul commanded to teach the gentiles to not eat meat sacrificed to idols or drink their blood?

How should Christians interpret Matthew 5:17-20? (In consideration of 1 John 3:4-6, "Sin is Transgression of the Law"). Does a few verses by Paul counteract and negate what is said earlier by Jesus and James and Jude and Peter?

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:04 am

Paul made the Mosaic Law obsolete, not Jesus, period.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
(Galatians 3:13)

If you believe Paul was an apostle for the Jews, you then must accept the Laws of Moses are obsolete.

earl · Post by **earl** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:43 am

"Think not that I have come to destroy the law and the prophets but to fulfill(illuminate) " the law"..
Jesus continues thereafter to illuminate the law(s) beginning at v.21and thereafter with the saying"Ye have heard"...
Amplification or an expansion of the laws is also useful to describe his illumination of the law(s).
"Away from me ye doers of lawlessness" is in tune with Jesus's statement "beware of the leaven (of the doctrine((teachings) of the Pharisees and the Saducees.Jesus throughout the gospels made strikes upon their traditional teachings.
At that time the jew belief was to sacrifice animals for the removal of sin.
The doctrine (teaching) Jesus taught was based on law - two laws.Lu.10.26.Jesus asks the lawyer, what is written in the law?The lawyer gave two replies from the law.
From this the animal sacrificing or any other sacrifice like the atonement doctrine is void and unnecessary and not required to use as a act for sin removal.
Paul states christ redemed us from the curse of the law.True in one way but not in another.Paul was emphasizing his atonement doctrine of removing sin by human sacrifice.But there was a true downfall to animal sacrifices.Killing animals to find God's mercy and favor is now become a primitive way no longer necessary in light of Jesus's new revelation from God and Jesus's doctrine.Jesus stated he will have mercy(forgiveness ) not sacrifice.

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:52 am

One thing I rarely get a straight answer from Christians about is why Paul is commanded to teach the Gentiles to not eat blood or meat sacrificed to idols if they think the Law is done away with. Why isn't murder on that list of four things?

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:35 am

Shermana wrote:One thing I rarely get a straight answer from Christians about is why Paul is commanded to teach the Gentiles to not eat blood or meat sacrificed to idols if they think the Law is done away with. Why isn't murder on that list of four things?

Thats because there is no straight answer, Paul made the Mosaic Laws obsolete for Christians, but it seems he himself still followed parts of it. Its hypocrisy.

KennethM · Post by **KennethM** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:52 am

Murad wrote:
Shermana wrote:One thing I rarely get a straight answer from Christians about is why Paul is commanded to teach the Gentiles to not eat blood or meat sacrificed to idols if they think the Law is done away with. Why isn't murder on that list of four things?
Thats because there is no straight answer, Paul made the Mosaic Laws obsolete for Christians, but it seems he himself still followed parts of it. Its hypocrisy.

He didn't make it "obsolete" to all Christians, simply Gentiles. Paul himself was a Jew and therefore still followed Mosaic law and he expected other Christians who were also Jews to do the same thing.

KennethM · Post by **KennethM** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:56 am

Shermana wrote:One thing I rarely get a straight answer from Christians about is why Paul is commanded to teach the Gentiles to not eat blood or meat sacrificed to idols if they think the Law is done away with. Why isn't murder on that list of four things?

That is because most Christians have no idea about what any of this means. It has to do with the commandment against idolatry. Many Christians were poor and meat was a fairly pricey commodity. The only time many ancient people would eat meat was during holidays when an animal had been sacrificed. Eating the meat was akin to sharing the sacrifice with the particular deity to whom it was given.

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:37 pm

So why not eat Blood either?

KennethM · Post by **KennethM** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:52 am

Shermana wrote:So why not eat Blood either?

The blood thing is a reminder of the Noahide covenant. In Genesis 9:4 God allows Noah and his offspring to eat animals so long as they don't eat the blood, as it represents life and belongs to God.

In this case it could also represent idolatry, by drinking the blood of an animal sacrificed to another god not only are you breaking the covenant but also taking into your body life which now belongs to another deity.

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:08 pm

So wait, all of the sudden a Noahide Law is still in effect?

Where do Christians draw the line as what Laws they follow? Why isn't murder on that list of 4? So do all the commandments given to Moses get void but those mentioned in Genesis don't?