"How Can You Defend Israel?" Part II

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cnorman18

"How Can You Defend Israel?" Part II

Post #1

Post by cnorman18 »

David Harris, Executive Director of the American Jewish Committee, wrote:
Since writing "How can you defend Israel?" last month, I've been deluged by comments.

Some have been supportive, others harshly critical. The latter warrant closer examination.

The harsh criticism falls into two basic categories.

One is over the top.

It ranges from denying Israel's very right to nationhood, to ascribing to Israel responsibility for every global malady, to peddling vague, or not so vague, anti-Semitic tropes.

There's no point in dwelling at length on card-carrying members of these schools of thought. They're living on another planet.

Israel is a fact. That fact has been confirmed by the UN, which, in 1947, recommended the creation of a Jewish state. The UN admitted Israel to membership in 1949. The combination of ancient and modern links between Israel and the Jewish people is almost unprecedented in history. And Israel has contributed its share, and then some, to advancing humankind.

If there are those on a legitimacy kick, let them examine the credentials of some others in the region, created by Western mapmakers eager to protect their own interests and ensure friendly leaders in power.

Or let them consider the basis for legitimacy of many countries worldwide created by invasion, occupation, and conquest. Israel's case beats them by a mile.

And if there are people out there who don't like all Jews, frankly, it's their problem, not mine. Are there Jewish scoundrels? You bet. Are there Christian, Muslim, atheist, and agnostic scoundrels? No shortage. But are all members of any such community by definition scoundrels? Only if you're an out-and-out bigot.

The other group of harsh critics assails Israeli policies, but generally tries to stop short of overt anti-Zionism or anti-Semitism. But many of these relentless critics, at the slightest opportunity, robotically repeat claims about Israel that are factually incorrect.

There are a couple of methodological threads that run through their analysis.

The first is called confirmation bias. This is the habit of favoring information that confirms what you believe, whether it's true or not, and ignoring the rest.

While Israel engages in a full-throttled debate on policies and strategies, rights and wrongs, do Israel's fiercest critics do the same? Hardly.

Can the chorus of critics admit, for example, that the UN recommended the creation of two states -- one Jewish, the other Arab -- and that the Jews accepted the proposal, while the Arabs did not and launched a war?

Can they acknowledge that wars inevitably create refugee populations and lead to border adjustments in favor of the (attacked) victors?

Can they recognize that, when the West Bank and Gaza were in Arab hands until 1967, there was no move whatsoever toward Palestinian statehood?

Can they explain why Arafat launched a "second intifada" just as Israel and the U.S. were proposing a path-breaking two-state solution?

Or what the Hamas Charter says about the group's goals?

Or what armed-to-the-teeth Hezbollah thinks of Israel's right to exist?

Or how nuclear-weapons-aspiring Iran views Israel's future?

Or why President Abbas rejected Prime Minister Olmert's two-state plan, when the Palestinian chief negotiator himself admitted it would have given his side the equivalent of 100 percent of the West Bank?

Or why Palestinian leaders refuse to recognize the Western Wall or Rachel's Tomb as Jewish sites, while demanding recognition of Muslim holy sites?

Or why Israel is expected to have an Arab minority, but a state of Palestine is not expected to have any Jewish minority?

Can they admit that, when Arab leaders are prepared to pursue peace with Israel rather than wage war, the results have been treaties, as the experiences of Egypt and Jordan show?

And can they own up to the fact that when it comes to liberal and democratic values in the region, no country comes remotely close to Israel, whatever its flaws, in protecting these rights?

Apropos, how many other countries in the Middle East -- or beyond -- would have tried and convicted an ex-president? This was the case, just last week, with Moshe Katsav, sending the message that no one is above the law -- in a process, it should be noted, presided over by an Israeli Arab justice.

And if the harsh critics can't acknowledge any of these points, what's the explanation? Does their antipathy for Israel -- and resultant confirmation bias -- blind them to anything that might puncture their airtight thinking?

Then there is the other malady. It's called reverse causality, or switching cause and effect.

Take the case of Gaza.

These critics focus only on Israel's alleged actions against Gaza, as if they were the cause of the problem. In reality, they are the opposite -- the effect.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, it gave local residents their first chance in history -- I repeat, in history -- to govern themselves.

Neighboring Israel had only one concern -- security. It wanted to ensure that whatever emerged in Gaza would not endanger Israelis. In fact, the more prosperous, stable, and peaceful Gaza became, the better for everyone. Tragically, Israel's worst fears were realized. Rather than focus on Gaza's construction, its leaders -- Hamas since 2007 -- preferred to contemplate Israel's destruction. Missiles and mortars came raining down on southern Israel. Israel's critics, though, were silent. Only when Israel could no longer tolerate the terror did the critics awaken -- to focus on Israel's reaction, not Gaza's provocative action.

Yet, what would any other nation have done in Israel's position?

Just imagine terrorists in power in British Columbia -- and Washington State's cities and towns being the regular targets of deadly projectiles. How long would it take for the U.S. to go in and try to put a stop to the terror attacks, and what kind of force would be used?

Or consider the security barrier.

It didn't exist for nearly 40 years. Then it was built by Israel in response to a wave of deadly attacks originating in the West Bank, with well over 1,000 Israeli fatalities (more than 40,000 Americans in proportional terms). Even so, Israel made clear that such barriers cannot only be erected, but also moved and ultimately dismantled.

Yet the outcry of Israel's critics began not when Israelis were being killed in pizzerias, at Passover Seders, and on buses, but only when the barrier went up.

Another case of reverse causality -- ignoring the cause entirely and focusing only on the effect, as if it were a stand-alone issue disconnected from anything else.

So, again, in answer to the question of my erstwhile British colleague, "How can you defend Israel?" I respond: Proudly.

In doing so, I am defending a liberal, democratic, and peace-seeking nation in a rough-and-tumble neighborhood, where liberalism, democracy, and peace are in woefully short supply.
Questions for debate:

Is there a difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel?

What are the most likely explanations for illegitimate criticisms?

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Re: "How Can You Defend Israel?" Part II

Post #11

Post by fredonly »

cnorman18 wrote: Is there a difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel?
If you're really asking: is all of the criticism of Israel deserved? The answer: no, only some of it is deserved.

Regarding "legitimate" - in my mind, this does not equate to "deserved" or "correct." e.g. It's legitimate to accuse Obama of moving the U.S. toward socialism; that doesn't make the charge correct. In this respect, I'd say most of the criticism is legitimate. It's illegitimate when it comes in the form of a suicide bomber.
cnorman18 wrote:What are the most likely explanations for illegitimate criticisms?
I think you mean "undeserved criticism." Prejudice - and I don't mean anti-semitism; I mean being pre-disposed to assume Israel is in the wrong.

In these general, philosophical, senses - there's no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world - criticisms are leveled at all of them, and some criticisms are deserved (and most are legitimate), and some are not deserved (and there may be some illegitimate).

cnorman18

Re: "How Can You Defend Israel?" Part II

Post #12

Post by cnorman18 »

fredonly wrote:
cnorman18 wrote: Is there a difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel?
If you're really asking: is all of the criticism of Israel deserved? The answer: no, only some of it is deserved.

Regarding "legitimate" - in my mind, this does not equate to "deserved" or "correct." e.g. It's legitimate to accuse Obama of moving the U.S. toward socialism; that doesn't make the charge correct. In this respect, I'd say most of the criticism is legitimate. It's illegitimate when it comes in the form of a suicide bomber.
cnorman18 wrote:What are the most likely explanations for illegitimate criticisms?
I think you mean "undeserved criticism." Prejudice - and I don't mean anti-semitism; I mean being pre-disposed to assume Israel is in the wrong.

In these general, philosophical, senses - there's no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world - criticisms are leveled at all of them, and some criticisms are deserved (and most are legitimate), and some are not deserved (and there may be some illegitimate).
Your points are well taken -- particularly the one about there being "no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world." That, in fact, is part of my point; when Israel is treated as being different from other nations, the criticism is illegitimate.

I am specifically thinking of (1) criticizing Israel for the admittedly accidental deaths of Palestinians while refusing to acknowledge or discuss the deliberate murders of Israeli civilians; (2) holding Israel to standards of conduct applied to no other nation on Earth, and specifically to no other nation in its neighborhood; (3) attributing any and all support for Israel entirely to a "Jewish lobby"; and (4) demanding that Israel justify its existence, which is also demanded of no other other nation; that sort of thing. I think that kind of criticism is both illegitimate AND undeserved.

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Re: "How Can You Defend Israel?" Part II

Post #13

Post by fredonly »

cnorman18 wrote:
fredonly wrote:
cnorman18 wrote: Is there a difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel?
If you're really asking: is all of the criticism of Israel deserved? The answer: no, only some of it is deserved.

Regarding "legitimate" - in my mind, this does not equate to "deserved" or "correct." e.g. It's legitimate to accuse Obama of moving the U.S. toward socialism; that doesn't make the charge correct. In this respect, I'd say most of the criticism is legitimate. It's illegitimate when it comes in the form of a suicide bomber.
cnorman18 wrote:What are the most likely explanations for illegitimate criticisms?
I think you mean "undeserved criticism." Prejudice - and I don't mean anti-semitism; I mean being pre-disposed to assume Israel is in the wrong.

In these general, philosophical, senses - there's no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world - criticisms are leveled at all of them, and some criticisms are deserved (and most are legitimate), and some are not deserved (and there may be some illegitimate).
Your points are well taken -- particularly the one about there being "no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world." That, in fact, is part of my point; when Israel is treated as being different from other nations, the criticism is illegitimate.
How do you really objectively judge whether or not Israel is being treated differently? All countries get criticized, and often it is for unique issues; and the criticism may be unfair - because, after all, most criticsm is based on something other than in-depth analysis.
cnorman wrote: I am specifically thinking of (1) criticizing Israel for the admittedly accidental deaths of Palestinians while refusing to acknowledge or discuss the deliberate murders of Israeli civilians; (2) holding Israel to standards of conduct applied to no other nation on Earth, and specifically to no other nation in its neighborhood; (3) attributing any and all support for Israel entirely to a "Jewish lobby"; and (4) demanding that Israel justify its existence, which is also demanded of no other other nation; that sort of thing. I think that kind of criticism is both illegitimate AND undeserved.
I hope you're not suggesting that all the Palestinian deaths by Israelis are accidental. But I do think that fair reporting would cover casualties on both sides. Such reporting has a time and place, of course.

The real issue of judgment pertains strictly to the Palestinian question, doesn't it? I haven't heard anyone say Israel is on par with, for example, Iran.

Justify its existence? That is inevitable because of the history. At this stage of the game, it should be water under the bridge.

But regarding legitimacy of criticism, as I said, almost all criticism is legitimate. I think you equate legitimate with fair-and-deserved.

The microscope is on Israel, not because of anti-Semitism, but because the Palestinian situation is the veritable center of the universe today. The situation spawned Islamic terrorism and enmity, not only to Israel, but to the United States. That's not excusing bad behavior, it's just a fact. No matter how justified Israel may be (I think you overstate it, but that's not really relevant to my point), it is perception that counts. Perceived injustice instills reaction. Think Boston Massacre and the outrage that ensued.

cnorman18

Re: "How Can You Defend Israel?" Part II

Post #14

Post by cnorman18 »

fredonly wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
fredonly wrote:
cnorman18 wrote: Is there a difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel?
If you're really asking: is all of the criticism of Israel deserved? The answer: no, only some of it is deserved.

Regarding "legitimate" - in my mind, this does not equate to "deserved" or "correct." e.g. It's legitimate to accuse Obama of moving the U.S. toward socialism; that doesn't make the charge correct. In this respect, I'd say most of the criticism is legitimate. It's illegitimate when it comes in the form of a suicide bomber.
cnorman18 wrote:What are the most likely explanations for illegitimate criticisms?
I think you mean "undeserved criticism." Prejudice - and I don't mean anti-semitism; I mean being pre-disposed to assume Israel is in the wrong.

In these general, philosophical, senses - there's no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world - criticisms are leveled at all of them, and some criticisms are deserved (and most are legitimate), and some are not deserved (and there may be some illegitimate).
Your points are well taken -- particularly the one about there being "no difference between Israel and any other regime in the world." That, in fact, is part of my point; when Israel is treated as being different from other nations, the criticism is illegitimate.
How do you really objectively judge whether or not Israel is being treated differently? All countries get criticized, and often it is for unique issues; and the criticism may be unfair - because, after all, most criticsm is based on something other than in-depth analysis.
cnorman wrote: I am specifically thinking of (1) criticizing Israel for the admittedly accidental deaths of Palestinians while refusing to acknowledge or discuss the deliberate murders of Israeli civilians; (2) holding Israel to standards of conduct applied to no other nation on Earth, and specifically to no other nation in its neighborhood; (3) attributing any and all support for Israel entirely to a "Jewish lobby"; and (4) demanding that Israel justify its existence, which is also demanded of no other other nation; that sort of thing. I think that kind of criticism is both illegitimate AND undeserved.
I hope you're not suggesting that all the Palestinian deaths by Israelis are accidental. But I do think that fair reporting would cover casualties on both sides. Such reporting has a time and place, of course.
I was referring to some specific posts on threads here on this forum. Links on request.

I suppose it might clarify matters if I made it clear that I am not talking about criticism in the press or from organizations in general, but criticism from individuals, like that which appears here; though there are exceptions (Human Rights Watch being one of them).
The real issue of judgment pertains strictly to the Palestinian question, doesn't it? I haven't heard anyone say Israel is on par with, for example, Iran.
Depends on what you mean by "on par with." There are members here who apparently hold Israel responsible for every ill and evil on the planet.

Yes, that is hyperbole. But you know what I mean.
Justify its existence? That is inevitable because of the history. At this stage of the game, it should be water under the bridge.
Precisely.
But regarding legitimacy of criticism, as I said, almost all criticism is legitimate. I think you equate legitimate with fair-and-deserved.
Okay. I won't quibble about the exact term.
The microscope is on Israel, not because of anti-Semitism, but because the Palestinian situation is the veritable center of the universe today. The situation spawned Islamic terrorism and enmity, not only to Israel, but to the United States. That's not excusing bad behavior, it's just a fact. No matter how justified Israel may be (I think you overstate it, but that's not really relevant to my point), it is perception that counts. Perceived injustice instills reaction. Think Boston Massacre and the outrage that ensued.
I shall now prove that I am NOT an ideologue by not taking exception to some fine points there, and by conceding that you're basically right.

Thanks very much for the comments.

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Post #15

Post by Shermana »

For every accusation a person has against Israel, they better have 3 for every Arab country or get the official Jew-singler-out stamp.

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Why I defend Israel

Post #16

Post by Wootah »

Because the dislike of Israel is based in Islamic teaching.

There is no rational reason to dislike Israel. If all the people in Israel just worked and raised their families they would find themselves in one of the great countries of the world.

cnorman18

Re: Why I defend Israel

Post #17

Post by cnorman18 »

Wootah wrote:Because the dislike of Israel is based in Islamic teaching.
Though some might expect me to agree with this, I don't. I would amend it to say, "The dislike of Israel -- and Jews -- is based in some current Islamic teaching."

There is a very ancient tradition of respect and good will between our religions, and there have been times and places where Jews and Muslims got along very well. 12th-century Muslim Spain is often described as a "Golden Age" for my people, and indeed that was the time and place of Maimonides, the greatest of our rabbis and teachers after Moses. Jews were much better of under Muslim rule in the Middle Ages than under that of Christians. The intense antisemitism and religiously-inspired teaching of it is largely a relatively recent phenomenon, and it is not universal even today; the synagogues and mosques here in Dallas often sponsor cooperative study groups and guest speakers, with imams speaking at the shuls and rabbis speaking at the mosques.

It is true, though, that there have been other times and places in the past when Jews were not well treated; the word "Dhimmi" comes to mind. Suffice it to say that hatred of Jews is not an integral part of the Muslim religion, and of course the reverse has never been true. Jews have only recently been in a position to make Muslims welcome in a society dominated by us, and in Israel, we do.

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Re: Why I defend Israel

Post #18

Post by yourfriendrick »

Wootah wrote: There is no rational reason to dislike Israel.
There is no rational reason to dislike any nation, or any person.

One can always love the sinner and hate the sin.

That does not mean that humans never commit sins.

I sometimes read American websites, such as the one at:

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... pying.html

The American author of that site seems to have Christian values. However, he gets a bit cross when conflicts between the USA and Israel are brought to his attention.

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