God in Arizona on TV now

[Slopeshoulder]

So far there have been three scripture readings and several references to God, faith and prayer by politicians at the memorial service (holder, napolitano, obama, governer and someone else). There was also a native american blessing ceremony.

Anybody bugged by this? Is this anti-constitution? Is that OK in this case either way? Is it being used in a "cultural" way vs. a theological way? is the ACLU on the way? etc?

[Darias]

I think it's fine. No one is putting one religion ahead of another; government is not establishing religion or religious law. If you got a problem with free expressions of religion at a memorial service, well that's too bad. Separation of Church and State does not mean that politicians cannot be religious or express their personal beliefs -- especially during a memorial service where people have died. It would almost be out of place to not mention God in a situation such as this.

[Slopeshoulder]

I think it's fine. No one is putting one religion ahead of another; government is not establishing religion or religious law. If you got a problem with free expressions of religion at a memorial service, well that's too bad. Separation of Church and State does not mean that politicians cannot be religious or express their personal beliefs -- especially during a memorial service where people have died. It would almost be out of place to not mention God in a situation such as this.

Point of clarification: I never said I had a problem with it.

[micatala]

So far there have been three scripture readings and several references to God, faith and prayer by politicians at the memorial service (holder, napolitano, obama, governer and someone else). There was also a native american blessing ceremony.

Anybody bugged by this? Is this anti-constitution? Is that OK in this case either way? Is it being used in a "cultural" way vs. a theological way? is the ACLU on the way? etc?

I saw the last 15 or 20 minutes of Obama's speech.

I personally did not find what I heard inappropriate from a religious speech standpont given the context. If I had any objections to the speech, it was that I found parts of it a little too trite or lacking gravitas. On the other hand, given the commentary I have been hearing on CNN, the rest of the event was even less serious in tone than Obama's speech.

You mention culture, and the reality is, religion is part of the culture. I fully understand millions of citizens are not religious, and I respect that. I am a staunch supporter of separation of church and state. However, I don't think banishing and discussion of religion or religious views on the part of politicians is necessary or appropriate.

[nygreenguy]

I dont think its helpful. People should learn to reflect inside to deal with their issues and not rely on a god who wont do anything to comfort you or ever stop things like this from happening.

Actually, I think its worse for the people.

[Slopeshoulder]

On the one hand, I thought is was an appropriate expression of where people are at, and it was kept from being too narrow by inclusion of the native american. And the content of the references were thematic rather than specifically preachy, more affirmatins than teachings. But if I were an atheist I might have found it dispiriting.

On the other hand, I thought all of it, including the many god referecnes, was targeted (predictably? appropriately?) to the lowest common denominator, laid on a little thick, and a reflection of the narrowly and psuedo-jesusy culture we live in. It almost felt a like a script or even pandering. But this is who "we" are, and this is how we roll, and it was in the end a group hug to provide some healing and serve the ever present need to "move on" and assure ourselves we'll be OK. It's as if we all become like teenagers in these circumstances. As someone who lost someone to tragedy, I find that a little simplistic, more like a daily affirmation than real substance. I felt that for 90% of the people present, it was all about reassuring them, not mourning the victims. About platitudes, not depth of sorrow and challenge. Maybe it was the overheated cheers that creeped me out a little.

So it reflected in a mixed way upon america.

But Obama rocked as usual. But FDR would've been even better.

[Goat]

On the one hand, I thought is was an appropriate expression of where people are at, and it was kept from being too narrow by inclusion of the native american. And the content of the references were thematic rather than specifically preachy, more affirmatins than teachings. But if I were an atheist I might have found it dispiriting.

On the other hand, I thought all of it, including the many god referecnes, was targeted (predictably? appropriately?) to the lowest common denominator, laid on a little thick, and a reflection of the narrowly and psuedo-jesusy culture we live in. It almost felt a like a script or even pandering. But this is who "we" are, and this is how we roll, and it was in the end a group hug to provide some healing and serve the ever present need to "move on" and assure ourselves we'll be OK. It's as if we all become like teenagers in these circumstances. As someone who lost someone to tragedy, I find that a little simplistic, more like a daily affirmation than real substance. I felt that for 90% of the people present, it was all about reassuring them, not mourning the victims. About platitudes, not depth of sorrow and challenge. Maybe it was the overheated cheers that creeped me out a little.

So it reflected in a mixed way upon america.

But Obama rocked as usual. But FDR would've been even better.

Obama is a very inspiring speaker. He managed to say what needed to be said without being contentious. He addressed the blame game and the finger pointing without blaming and finger pointing... and he also address the toxic rhetoric without the blame game or finger pointing... a highly difficult act I thought.

[Darias]

I dont think its helpful. People should learn to reflect inside to deal with their issues and not rely on a god who wont do anything to comfort you or ever stop things like this from happening.

Actually, I think its worse for the people.

Well from the religious tones I heard, I don't recall anything being said about expecting God to keep these things from happening...

I could be wrong but...

.. still. I think what Obama said at the end was fitting:

If there are rain puddles in heaven, Christina is jumping in them today.

Now, even if you don't believe in heaven, I don't see why this is unsettling or disturbing or whatever...

It's appropriate for the setting.

What's not appropriate is:

"She's dead; they're all dead -- and we're all gonna die someday so get over it."

Let's face it; America is a religious country -- whether we like the fundamentalism or not -- it's still religious. Countries that prohibit all expression of religion are countries like France -- where you are only free to express your Atheism. You can't wear crosses or hijabs in public schools. You certainly don't mention faith if you are running for office.

But I don't view France as a beacon of democracy whatsoever.


I will admit that for me, the Native American prayer seemed strange -- but that was because I'm not of that faith, though I have Cherokee ancestry. I still thought it was cool cause it was particularly Arizonian -- it was appropriate for that setting. So in that sense I can relate with you with your discomfort with all the Christian/God undertones.

However, I don't see how Obama failed to address the importance of inward reflection:

After all, that's what most of us do when we lose somebody in our family -- especially if the loss is unexpected. We're shaken out of our routines. We're forced to look inward. We reflect on the past: Did we spend enough time with an aging parent, we wonder. Did we express our gratitude for all the sacrifices that they made for us? Did we tell a spouse just how desperately we loved them, not just once in a while but every single day? So sudden loss causes us to look backward -- but it also forces us to look forward; to reflect on the present and the future, on the manner in which we live our lives and nurture our relationships with those who are still with us. (Applause.) We may ask ourselves if we've shown enough kindness and generosity and compassion to the people in our lives. Perhaps we question whether we're doing right by our children, or our community, whether our priorities are in order. We recognize our own mortality, and we are reminded that in the fleeting time we have on this Earth, what matters is not wealth, or status, or power, or fame -- but rather, how well we have loved -- (applause)
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SOURCE

[Darias]

I think it's fine. No one is putting one religion ahead of another; government is not establishing religion or religious law. If you got a problem with free expressions of religion at a memorial service, well that's too bad. Separation of Church and State does not mean that politicians cannot be religious or express their personal beliefs -- especially during a memorial service where people have died. It would almost be out of place to not mention God in a situation such as this.

Point of clarification: I never said I had a problem with it.

Sorry, perhaps I unintentionally made it a bit personal. I meant it to be a general statement.

[East of Eden]

No problem with the God-talk, in no way does it violate separation of church and state.

Obama certainly is a good speaker, about the only thing he is good at. I give him credit for not blaming and finger-pointing, as Clinton did after OK City.