Repeated Unsupported Claims

[cnorman18]

I would like to focus attention on some claims of fact, which have appeared on this forum many times from the same member, but to date without proof or evidence of any kind. They remain mere unsupported assertions -- claims presented without justification.

That, at least, is my own opinion. The questions for debate on this thread center on that specific issue. The claims themselves:

FIRST, that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, usually referred to by its acronym, AIPAC, essentially “controls� the American media. This “control� consists of squelching and stifling all criticism of Israel, and of enforcing support of Israel on the part of Government officials. Further, this claim has often explicitly included the corollary claims that virtually ALL support of Israel that appears in US media comes from “AIPAC fronts� and “Israel Defence Force disinformation specialists,� and that US support for Israel, both at the governmental level and from the public, is attributable to the control of the AIPAC conspiracy and to nothing else. There are other assumptions in this claim of AIPAC “control,� but those will do for the moment.

This claim is often put forth in the form of propaganda cartoons, like these:





Now, no one is saying that there are no Israeli or Jewish lobbyists; there certainly are, just as there are lobbyists who advocate policy and provide press releases on behalf of, say, the pharmaceutical industry or trial lawyers or the nations of Canada and the United Kingdom. But the claims about AIPAC and the Israeli lobby go rather far beyond simply noting its existence. The claims are about conspiracy and control.

SECOND, it has been alleged, and very often, that one, at least, of the principal methods by which criticism of Israel is squelched and suppressed by the conspiracy is by routinely attributing all criticism of Israel, legitimate or not, to anti-Semitism. This, too, is often expressed in propaganda-cartoon form:



Since criticism of Israel and Israeli policy which is NOT dismissed as anti-Semitism, from Israelis and Jews themselves as well as from others, is not at all hard to find -- read any Israeli, Jewish or American newspaper or newsmagazine -- this claim strikes me as pure falsehood, pure propaganda.

The questions for debate are, as I stated above:

Should there not be proof or evidence given for these claims?

If so, what is it?

Are cartoons like the ones above actually contributing to the debate, or do they amount to inflammatory smears and nothing more?

[East of Eden]

* sound of crickets chirping *

[micatala]

* sound of crickets chirping *

Over 24 hours now.

[cnorman18]

Patience, patience. The Member In Question often takes several days between visits.

Of course, I rather expect that we'll see a new thread started instead of any reply on this one.

[East of Eden]

Patience, patience. The Member In Question often takes several days between visits.

Of course, I rather expect that we'll see a new thread started instead of any reply on this one.

CNorman, FWIW, I'm looking forward to attending the Night to Honor Israel event tomorrow night. Dennis Prager will be speaking, along with Pastor John Hagee.

[Slopeshoulder]

CNorman FWIW, John Hagee is a demonic psycho. Israel needs him like a hole in the head. He's a dangerous laughingstock. They simply use him to their own ends while laughing at them. This is OK, because Hagee uses them in return as pawns in his apocolyptic fantasies based on a childish reading of a complex human allegorical literary work.

There is no evidence to support the claims in the OP. Sure, we can have different takes on events, but the POV that this member has crosses the line into obsessive conspiratorial anti-semitism. His POV is not policy analysis, it is hate speech and should be treated accordingly.

[cnorman18]

For the record, my own opinions:

Dennis Prager is one of the few good guys on the radio. He is conservative, certainly, but he is not a nutcase or an obsessive-compulsive.

John Hagee is a bit of a fundamentalist nutter, from my point of view, but he's entitled to his beliefs, and my people need all the support they can get. Some Jews may be "laughing at him," but in general we tend to leave others to their own opinions and give respect as it is given to us. Hagee's beliefs are relatively benign as far as I know -- End Times nuttiness is not of much practical importance, in my opinion -- but if anyone wants to dispute that, I'd ask that you start a new thread on it. John Hagee is not the topic of this thread.

My thanks to East of Eden for his support of Israel. We disagree on many things, but that is not one of them, and I am grateful for support from any quarter on that matter. As I've said many, many times; one's beliefs matter far less than one's actions.

DeBunkem, to name names, is what he is. His posts speak for themselves, and I see no need to characterize him personally. What I'm looking for in this thread is either proof of his claims, or acknowledgment from others (which we now have) that those claims are unsupported. Whether or not those claims will be treated as violations of Rule #5 in the future, I leave up to the moderating team, but I for one will be reporting them whenever they appear, in explicit or implicit form. Control and conspiracy aren't matters of opinion, they are matters of fact, and as such ought to be supported if those claims are made. Period, full stop.

Also for the record, I have long since recused myself from interventions regarding DeBunkem's posts. I obviously cannot be impartial where he is concerned, I freely admit that, and I leave dealing with him to other members of the team.

[East of Eden]

CNorman FWIW, John Hagee is a demonic psycho. Israel needs him like a hole in the head. He's a dangerous laughingstock. They simply use him to their own ends while laughing at them. This is OK, because Hagee uses them in return as pawns in his apocolyptic fantasies based on a childish reading of a complex human allegorical literary work.

There is no evidence to support the claims in the OP. Sure, we can have different takes on events, but the POV that this member has crosses the line into obsessive conspiratorial anti-semitism. His POV is not policy analysis, it is hate speech and should be treated accordingly.

Don't you think demonic psycho a bit harsh? I disagree with Pastor Hagee's rapture/end times theology and would never go to his church, but like CNorman am glad for his support of Israel. Many on the Christian left are anti-Israel.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/01/ ... srael.html

[cnorman18]

CNorman FWIW, John Hagee is a demonic psycho. Israel needs him like a hole in the head. He's a dangerous laughingstock. They simply use him to their own ends while laughing at them. This is OK, because Hagee uses them in return as pawns in his apocolyptic fantasies based on a childish reading of a complex human allegorical literary work.

There is no evidence to support the claims in the OP. Sure, we can have different takes on events, but the POV that this member has crosses the line into obsessive conspiratorial anti-semitism. His POV is not policy analysis, it is hate speech and should be treated accordingly.

Don't you think demonic psycho a bit harsh? I disagree with Pastor Hagee's rapture/end times theology and would never go to his church, but like CNorman am glad for his support of Israel. Many on the Christian left are anti-Israel.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/01/ ... srael.html

Like I said, Pastor Hagee is not the topic of this thread. One more post on that subject and I'll split it. Please start another thread if you want to discuss Hagee.